Baltimore Baseball: O's rebuild should include Buck

[big_sparxx]

Buck hasn't ever recovered from that decision in Toronto. Neither has THIS tam. This season was completely predictable based on last season. Last season, people will claim that we were in it until September (or whenever). That's a crock.  Too many stats junkies, not enough reality seekers.

Sometimes you gotta find ways to win. Sometimes it means admitting that mistakes were made and that they need to be corrected.

Buck is gonna deal the hand he's dealt. Praying for long ball baseball does nothing if you're not hitting the long-ball. Where was the backup plan? Far too many games when we didn't do the little things. Walk...Hit and run, sacrifice, steal a damn base. What are you waiting for? Chris to turn into the Hulk? Trumbo to have another career year? Adam o take a walk, or not swing at that slider away on 2 strikes?

Far too many things Buck could have tried and didn't...and let's not discuss why our pitching hasn't improved.  When was Gausman, Tillman or Bundy ever going to really emerge as a solid starter? 

Buck's been waiting on the card that changes his two-pair into a full house. Sorry fans... tricks are for kids.

 

Thanks... but I'll pass on 2019.

[Luke-OH]

2 minutes ago, big_sparxx said:

Buck hasn't ever recovered from that decision in Toronto. Neither has THIS tam. This season was completely predictable based on last season. Last season, people will claim that we were in it until September (or whenever). That's a crock.  Too many stats junkies, not enough reality seekers.

 Sometimes you gotta find ways to win. Sometimes it means admitting that mistakes were made and that they need to be corrected.

Buck is gonna deal the hand he's dealt. Praying for long ball baseball does nothing if you're not hitting the long-ball. Where was the backup plan? Far too many games when we didn't do the little things. Walk...Hit and run, sacrifice, steal a damn base. What are you waiting for? Chris to turn into the Hulk? Trumbo to have another career year? Adam o take a walk, or not swing at that slider away on 2 strikes?

Far too many things Buck could have tried and didn't...and let's not discuss why our pitching hasn't improved.  When was Gausman, Tillman or Bundy ever going to really emerge as a solid starter? 

Buck's been waiting on the card that changes his two-pair into a full house. Sorry fans... tricks are for kids.

 

Thanks... but I'll pass on 2019.

I'm with you on most of the other stuff, but what does that mean? Are you implying the Orioles rely too much on statistics?

[e16bball]

I also think they should keep Buck. 

I saw it written on this site the other day that Buck is not a manager for a rebuild, which is hilariously wrong. He’s not just a manager for a rebuild, he might in fact be THE manager for a rebuild. It’s basically the big knock on him — great builder, can’t get over the hump. Joined four teams at the bottom of the league, had them all contending for the playoffs in short order. 

Buck has his shortcomings. Too loyal to the veterans who have served him well. Good quality in a person, not as great in a manager. And that dovetails closely with the biggest issue with Buck, which is that he just can’t be allowed to have significant input on personnel decisions. That’s not really just a “Buck” thing, it’s pretty much all coaches across the board in all sports. The person responsible for winning the next game and maxmizing this season’s win total cannot be the same person who is expected to be mindful of the long-term health of the franchise. And that issue is exacerbated with a manager as loyal as Buck. He needs to be removed from the personnel decision making process — and if that’s a deal-breaker for him, then so be it.

Obviously, we can’t just ignore this season. But we’d be foolish to just ignore the rest of his track record. So remove his “incumbent” status (essentially treating it as if you’d fired him) and look at him as just another available manager with interest in the job.

Is there really some other candidate you’d prefer to have leading a rebuild than Buck Showalter, who is 4-for-4 in presiding over moribund (or nascent) franchises’ return to prominence? He hasn’t just lost the ability to teach the game and coach fundamentals and develop relationships with young players finding their way together. I sincerely doubt we’ll find anyone who is Buck's equal in these areas. And while I do agree that the clubhouse probably tuned him out to some extent this season, it will be an entirely different clubhouse next season and beyond. It will be a new young group he can develop into a winner, as he’s done every single time before. 

[AdamK]

I keep hearing the sentiment that Buck's shtick gets worn out on players after long, and that a change would be well timed so the players hear a fresh voice/style/etc.

But if we turn over the roster THIS significantly so it is essentially a brand new group at the MLB level, his message would be fresh to them, no?

If we're talking about him not being aligned with GM/FO moves to the detriment of the on-field record, that is one thing. But if the veteran MLB roster became tone def to him, and they were not aligned with Buck, we're replacing those guys.

 

[big_sparxx]

13 minutes ago, Luke-OH said:

I'm with you on most of the other stuff, but what does that mean? Are you implying the Orioles rely too much on statistics?

Nah... fans... If the O's management actually cared about stats.... they'd care about OB%... and no one will ever admit th O's ever cared about that under Buck.

[Luke-OH]

1 minute ago, big_sparxx said:

Nah... fans... If the O's management actually cared about stats.... they'd care about OB%... and no one will ever admit th O's ever cared about that under Buck.

I still don't get it though, the stats said the Orioles should have sold at the deadline in 2017, they were statistical longshots for even a wildcard spot. Fans obsessed with stats would claim the opposite of the Orioles still being in it in Sept. 

[foxfield]

10 minutes ago, AdamK said:

I keep hearing the sentiment that Buck's shtick gets worn out on players after long, and that a change would be well timed so the players hear a fresh voice/style/etc.

But if we turn over the roster THIS significantly so it is essentially a brand new group at the MLB level, his message would be fresh to them, no?

If we're talking about him not being aligned with GM/FO moves to the detriment of the on-field record, that is one thing. But if the veteran MLB roster became tone def to him, and they were not aligned with Buck, we're replacing those guys.

 

But what if it is both?  Chris Davis is probably a pretty big chunk of this and he is not going anywhere.

[wildbillhiccup]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

I step over that line a lot.

It's certainly a lot more endearing when the team is winning

[Frobby]

37 minutes ago, e16bball said:

I also think they should keep Buck. 

I saw it written on this site the other day that Buck is not a manager for a rebuild, which is hilariously wrong. He’s not just a manager for a rebuild, he might in fact be THE manager for a rebuild. It’s basically the big knock on him — great builder, can’t get over the hump. Joined four teams at the bottom of the league, had them all contending for the playoffs in short order. 

Buck has his shortcomings. Too loyal to the veterans who have served him well. Good quality in a person, not as great in a manager. And that dovetails closely with the biggest issue with Buck, which is that he just can’t be allowed to have significant input on personnel decisions. That’s not really just a “Buck” thing, it’s pretty much all coaches across the board in all sports. The person responsible for winning the next game and maxmizing this season’s win total cannot be the same person who is expected to be mindful of the long-term health of the franchise. And that issue is exacerbated with a manager as loyal as Buck. He needs to be removed from the personnel decision making process — and if that’s a deal-breaker for him, then so be it.

Obviously, we can’t just ignore this season. But we’d be foolish to just ignore the rest of his track record. So remove his “incumbent” status (essentially treating it as if you’d fired him) and look at him as just another available manager with interest in the job.

Is there really some other candidate you’d prefer to have leading a rebuild than Buck Showalter, who is 4-for-4 in presiding over moribund (or nascent) franchises’ return to prominence? He hasn’t just lost the ability to teach the game and coach fundamentals and develop relationships with young players finding their way together. I sincerely doubt we’ll find anyone who is Buck's equal in these areas. And while I do agree that the clubhouse probably tuned him out to some extent this season, it will be an entirely different clubhouse next season and beyond. It will be a new young group he can develop into a winner, as he’s done every single time before. 

I don’t agree we should retain Buck, but you’ve stated the case for it very well.   

[AdamK]

17 minutes ago, foxfield said:

But what if it is both?  Chris Davis is probably a pretty big chunk of this and he is not going anywhere.

Considered him and here are my thoughts:

If Davis were any good, I'd care, but I don't view Davis as the driving force behind whether a manager stays or goes. Yes, we've committed money to him, and he won't go anywhere. If he was a detriment to team morale I would suspect its not because of Buck, and it better not be because of his salary, it would be because he is blocking someone. Deep down, even Davis probably wants to get out of the way.  

 

[Ruzious]

I think at this point, Buck pretty much requires a say in personnel moves, and I don't think that will work in the front office dynamics that are being established here.  He did a tremendous job through most of his tenure here - as a manager - and it's time to move on, imo.  The organization and how they go about business has changed, and he's not a fit for it.      

[Malike]

Doesn't matter to me if they keep him or let him go. I think the argument that he's being tuned out is a poor one. This team is going to look a whole lot different and much like when Buck got here, I think he's capable of instilling fire during a rebuild. I think his team got old, I don't think they've quit on him. They just got a lot younger. 

[foxfield]

Well I agree with the many arguments of Buck's supports.  And I am fine if he stays as long as he is extended by the GM.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

5 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm pretty sure one of the trends in baseball is to not leave your best reliever on the bench in a playoff game just because it isn't a save situation.

Buck was ahead of the curve.  His secret plan was to use Britton as the opener in the first game of the divisional round.  

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

3 hours ago, wildcard said:

So there is not such thing as tanking?

Then Tillman would still be starting games. Or would that be too obvious?