Calling Elias incompetent is unfair

[Sessh]

4 hours ago, drjohnnyfeva said:

I must have erased that out of my post.  That was the only other year he had full time duty.  His output was similar to this year's, not quite as good, and he was never able to solidify an everyday roll until this year.

This is simply not true. As previously stated, he played 156 games in 2016. He played 122 games in 2017, but missed a month due to a back injury. He played 141 games in 2018, but missed 10 games due to a thumb injury. He has been a full time player for four years during which time he has accumulated a 10.7 WAR with one bad year of the four. I'm not sure where you're getting the "not an everyday player" thing from. It's simply false.

[Sessh]

52 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Yeah, I mean, who thinks a switch hitting 28-year old 4-win middle infielder is good? I mean every team has two of these guys right? I mean, he's only been worth 6.2 WAR in his last 216 games. Clearly he should have zero value. I mean typically 28-year old switch hitter with speed and power fall off the cliff when they turn 29. 

Man, the more i think about it, I see you point. Villar is clearly not a good player.

I know, right? It's peculiar how much of this kind of stuff surrounds VIllar. You know it's gone to ridiculous lengths when people start saying that stuff not to mention some lost credibility for even trying to make such a case. He is the most misjudged player I've seen on here since I've been here. His mistakes are overly exaggerated and his strengths and career accomplishments are diminished in favor of amplifying his low points to the point of caricature or even just saying things that aren't true which can be easily verified as such. I don't get it. I think Villar is destined to achieve Lew Ford status at some point.

[weams]

25 minutes ago, Sessh said:

 I think Villar is destined to achieve Lew Ford status at some point.

He has. Hasn’t he?

[Jammer7]

I am torn on the Villar waiver, and perhaps non-tender. I hardly think Elias is a buffoon as one poster said, but I understand the emotion. I find it very hard to believe that he had any market for him at all in July, and the same now. If no team claims him on waivers, are all GM's buffoons? They all have the same decision to make, is Villar worth $10.5 million for 2020? If he clears waivers, and perhaps we re-sign him to a reasonable amount. Maybe we trade him in July 2020. It's a big gamble either way. Sign him through arbitration and he flops, or non-tender and he has another great year elsewhere. Who knows at this point, but it may just be an outstanding move.

He was exciting last year, more so in the second half, and we still lost 108 games. Without him, do we lose 112? He has had 2 very good seasons in seven years, 2016 (3.9 WAR) and 2019 (4.0). The defense can be good at times, and it can be lackadaisical. The 20 errors do not tell the story, but there were many balls he mishandled and mental mistakes. The defensive metrics do not favor him either, but not sure they have much merit. 

The Orioles are his third team. There are reasons why guys with lots of tools move around like he has, and sometimes it's things that aren't always public. We do not know what all goes into this decision, but to say it is simply 'tanking" or cost cutting seems simplistic to me. There is a reason why no one has taken him off our hands for any moderate return. 

If they sign Adeiny Hechevarria to play SS, maybe for $1-2 million. Or Jose Iglesias for a maybe twice that. We lose the offense Villar provided last year, but no guarantee we would get anything close to that output again for the arbitration figure he wants. 

I will wait to judge the move until after things settle. These are very intelligent people running the show. And yes, I will give Mr. Elias the benefit of the doubt that he and his team know what they are doing.

[WarehouseChatter]

On 11/29/2019 at 6:03 PM, Roll Tide said:

Strong opinions from a guy that has 111 posts in 8 years that is here using his handle to advertise his Facebook Blog site.

You obviously have the right to your opinion and personally I don't care what it is. I hate the move and have explained why. Can you really see the "changes" at this point?

He's hired a bunch of his buddies and fired other that had varying levels of value. He hasn't added an international player that was rated. He hasn't made a worth while trade yet. He just DFA'd our best player for no return.

Perhaps my opinion will change but so far he hasn't showed me anything. And yes ...Talk is cheap!

 

 

I didn’t realize the board had a quota for posts.  Also, while I dabbled on an orioles website in the past, I was turned off by personal attacks on posters (like yours above) and decided against it.  
 

I’m all for challenging one another on opinions, but personal insults directed at posters shouldan’ t be tolerated.  I’ve been a paying member for many years and visit here every day.  No wonder Tony loses members (and posts) to the site.

[wildbillhiccup]

21 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Yeah, I mean, who thinks a switch hitting 28-year old 4-win middle infielder is good? I mean every team has two of these guys right? I mean, he's only been worth 6.2 WAR in his last 216 games. Clearly he should have zero value. I mean typically 28-year old switch hitter with speed and power fall off the cliff when they turn 29. 

Man, the more i think about it, I see you point. Villar is clearly not a good player.

Then why was no one else interested in him, Tony? Is all of MLB wrong? All those people who are paid to evaluate and assess talent for a living?

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

Then why was no one else interested in him, Tony? Is all of MLB wrong? All those people who are paid to evaluate and assess talent for a living?

He's going to hit free agency then score a 3/36 contract as teams have to bid against each other to secure his services!

[wildbillhiccup]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

He's going to hit free agency then score a 3/36 contract as teams have to bid against each other to secure his services!

Are you being sarcastic? I can't imagine anyone gives Villar $10M+ a year. 

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

Are you being sarcastic? I can't imagine anyone gives Villar $10M+ a year. 

[atomic]

13 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

He's going to hit free agency then score a 3/36 contract as teams have to bid against each other to secure his services!

You told us repeatedly how a player is worth 8 million per WAR.  I disagreed with you repeatedly on this.  Even if you think Villar is only going to be worth 2 WAR a season Can o Corn would be willing to pay Villar 16 million for next season. 

[Roll Tide]

30 minutes ago, WarehouseChatter said:

I didn’t realize the board had a quota for posts.  Also, while I dabbled on an orioles website in the past, I was turned off by personal attacks on posters (like yours above) and decided against it.  
 

I’m all for challenging one another on opinions, but personal insults directed at posters shouldan’ t be tolerated.  I’ve been a paying member for many years and visit here every day.  No wonder Tony loses members (and posts) to the site.

Here is your post dude....Don't play the victim!

Quote

I just have to sit back and laugh at some of this (not Elias and the O’s, but some of the posters on the board).  Anyone who says he’s done nothing doesn’t deserve to be a fan.  If you can’t see and feel the organization changes, you’re nuts.  This club was years (if not a decade) behind others and “fans” are ready to jump ship after 1 move?  In my opinion, go for it.  Jump ship.  I’ll still be here when we compete again

So you are sitting around laughing at "POSTERS" on this site whom you don't agree with? That sure seems like an insult to me!

Then you have the balls to say that "We don't deserve to be a fans" for not seeing Elias' progress. In my opinion that is no less valuable than yours is that he has not done anything yet to add anything. That includes the Cashner return, no use of the international slots, and the inability to get anything for Villar at the break or off season despite him having a career year. I acknowledge that he is trying to change the organizational philosophy and process. That has resulted in a lot of front office and coaches changes. I don't think anyone can say for certain that it is working yet.

"If you can’t see and feel the organization changes, you’re nuts. " ..... So I'm nuts, but based on my previous paragraph I dont see  anything yet. Plus, does he really have control? Was the assigned payroll so low that it required the DFA path to remove your best player resulting in no return. When if you couldn't get value at this time you just keep the player hoping to cash in later. As I stated, the payroll was already down 80 million in 2019 and another 80-100 in 2020. And we are going to make excuses about the funds not being available.

"“fans” are ready to jump ship after 1 move?"  Its hardly been 1 move sir! Cashner, Villar, wasted International slots, etc. Its a bit naive to think that fans who post on this site are "jumping ship". And after putting up with Peter's crap for 20+ years.

So thats 3 .... " insults" by you in a single post and 1 assumption that posters are giving up their fandom!

And you think you have the right to be sensitive?

 

Here for you to read again is my post

 

Quote

Strong opinions from a guy that has 111 posts in 8 years that is here using his handle to advertise his Facebook Blog site.

You obviously have the right to your opinion and personally I don't care what it is. I hate the move and have explained why. Can you really see the "changes" at this point?

He's hired a bunch of his buddies and fired other that had varying levels of value. He hasn't added an international player that was rated. He hasn't made a worth while trade yet. He just DFA'd our best player for no return.

Perhaps my opinion will change but so far he hasn't showed me anything. And yes ...Talk is cheap!

 

1) I think your statements are strong opinions and it is indeed true that you have 111 posts over 8 years

2) You are indeed using your handle to advertise your Facebook Page Fan page (FACT)

3) I asked a question about changes that you can see and you didn't respond

4) I gave you my opinion about what he has accomplished

 

SO FOR EVERYONE HERE >>>>PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE THE "PERSONAL ATTACK" IS  IN THE POST ABOVE. DESPITE THE THINGS THAT YOU SAID ABOUT POSTERS INCLUDING ME IN YOUR POST.

SHOW ME THE PERSONAL INSULT THAT HARMED YOU IN MY POST!

 

 

 

 

[7Mo]

1 hour ago, WarehouseChatter said:

I didn’t realize the board had a quota for posts.  Also, while I dabbled on an orioles website in the past, I was turned off by personal attacks on posters (like yours above) and decided against it.  
 

I’m all for challenging one another on opinions, but personal insults directed at posters shouldan’ t be tolerated.  I’ve been a paying member for many years and visit here every day.  No wonder Tony loses members (and posts) to the site.

Post more often. We need good posts.

[WarehouseChatter]

53 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

Here is your post dude....Don't play the victim!

So you are sitting around laughing at "POSTERS" on this site whom you don't agree with? That sure seems like an insult to me!

Then you have the balls to say that "We don't deserve to be a fans" for not seeing Elias' progress. In my opinion that is no less valuable than yours is that he has not done anything yet to add anything. That includes the Cashner return, no use of the international slots, and the inability to get anything for Villar at the break or off season despite him having a career year. I acknowledge that he is trying to change the organizational philosophy and process. That has resulted in a lot of front office and coaches changes. I don't think anyone can say for certain that it is working yet.

"If you can’t see and feel the organization changes, you’re nuts. " ..... So I'm nuts, but based on my previous paragraph I dont see  anything yet. Plus, does he really have control? Was the assigned payroll so low that it required the DFA path to remove your best player resulting in no return. When if you couldn't get value at this time you just keep the player hoping to cash in later. As I stated, the payroll was already down 80 million in 2019 and another 80-100 in 2020. And we are going to make excuses about the funds not being available.

"“fans” are ready to jump ship after 1 move?"  Its hardly been 1 move sir! Cashner, Villar, wasted International slots, etc. Its a bit naive to think that fans who post on this site are "jumping ship". And after putting up with Peter's crap for 20+ years.

So thats 3 .... " insults" by you in a single post and 1 assumption that posters are giving up their fandom!

And you think you have the right to be sensitive?

 

Here for you to read again is my post

 

 

1) I think your statements are strong opinions and it is indeed true that you have 111 posts over 8 years

2) You are indeed using your handle to advertise your Facebook Page Fan page (FACT)

3) I asked a question about changes that you can see and you didn't respond

4) I gave you my opinion about what he has accomplished

 

SO FOR EVERYONE HERE >>>>PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE THE "PERSONAL ATTACK" IS  IN THE POST ABOVE. DESPITE THE THINGS THAT YOU SAID ABOUT POSTERS INCLUDING ME IN YOUR POST.

SHOW ME THE PERSONAL INSULT THAT HARMED YOU IN MY POST!

 

 

 

 

Sad....just sad.  Sorry you can’t be helped.  

[WarehouseChatter]

53 minutes ago, 7Mo said:

Post more often. We need good posts.

Thanks 7Mo - appreciate it.  Definitely frustrated with the franchise, but I’m still bullish on the future.  It will take time, but I see Elias doing things that no GM/Leader for the Orioles has done in decades - focus on building the organization from inside out.  
 

The current economics of the league make it hard for some to compete, but it can be done and I feel we’re doing it the right way.  While I understand the Villar move, it’s understandably frustrating to the fan base.  

[Roll Tide]

37 minutes ago, WarehouseChatter said:

Thanks 7Mo - appreciate it.  Definitely frustrated with the franchise, but I’m still bullish on the future.  It will take time, but I see Elias doing things that no GM/Leader for the Orioles has done in decades - focus on building the organization from inside out.  
 

The current economics of the league make it hard for some to compete, but it can be done and I feel we’re doing it the right way.  While I understand the Villar move, it’s understandably frustrating to the fan base.  

I'm not going to respond to your previous post as nothing positive can come from it.

I think this post is an objective and well thought out post! Please continue to make contributions like these to the board.

Thanks