If you are going to move Villar to save money you might as well release Davis

[Sessh]

1 hour ago, wildbillhiccup said:

I've never rooted for a player to flop more than Jonathan Villar in 2020, just so I can go back quote tweet all of your angry, sarcastic rants about the team not signing Villar at the end of the year. I didn't have a dog in this fight before, but you've literally made me want to root against him. 

Made you want to? You've been carrying this huge, irrational grudge against Villar for most of last season. I doubt atomic has anything to do with it. You just want desperately to be right about him. You want him to fail so you can be right.

32 minutes ago, Frobby said:

But the better he does, the worse our decision looks

..and the more our rookie GM and the FO he assembled would (hopefully) learn. I'm all for that.

[Roll Tide]

8 minutes ago, Sessh said:

Made you want to? You've been carrying this huge, irrational grudge against Villar for most of last season. I doubt ROLLTIDE has anything to do with it. You just want desperately to be right about him. You want him to fail so you can be right.

..and the more our rookie GM and the FO he assembled would (hopefully) learn. I'm all for that.

And at this point I'm hoping that Elias learned his lesson about tipping his hand before a trade negotiation. If he does I am willing to give him a pass on this one and chalk it up as a rookie mistake.

[atomic]

46 minutes ago, MurphDogg said:

Yep, some guys are just late bloomers and/or bridge burners and there is nothing you can do about it. Schilling had one good season before he turned 29 and would be a Hall of Famer if Twitter hadn't been invented. Arrieta didn't even have a 1 rWAR season until he was 28. Just one of those things.

Schilling also swindled $75 million from the Rhode Island Government.  He doesn't seem like the nicest guy.  I follow some travel blogs and some guy tweeted that he in  first class with Schilling and asked what Schilling was doing in first class when he claimed he was broke and Curt tweeted back that he would want him to repeat what he said in person when they got off the plane (called the guy a gutless azz) and yelled at the guy at baggage claim. 

I still think he belongs in the Hall of Fame even though he is a terrible person.

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

Like I said, I wouldn’t exactly root against Villar.    But the better he does, the worse our decision looks, and I’d rather minimize my regrets over that decision, at least to a point.   

Does it?  Let's say he repeats last year.  If the Orioles had gone to arb with him, they win 63 games or whatever, they pay him $10M that wouldn't be available for other investments, and they probably get about the same slim market for him at the deadline.  

They let him go and he has the same year... they've saved $10M.  They win 61 games instead of 63, or whatever.  They have $10M in the bank to either upgrade the organization or pay for a parking garage full of Bentleys for the Angelos family.  But they have more resources to do something with.

The only way the O's look really bad is if he is an MVP candidate and some team offers up a huge package to the Marlins for 3-4 months of him.  That's pretty darned unlikely.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, atomic said:

Schilling also swindled $75 million from the Rhode Island Government.  He doesn't seem like the nicest guy.  I follow some travel blogs and some guy tweeted that he in  first class with Schilling and asked what Schilling was doing in first class when he claimed he was broke and Curt tweeted back that he would want him to repeat what he said in person when they got off the plane (called the guy a gutless azz) and yelled at the guy at baggage claim. 

I still think he belongs in the Hall of Fame even though he is a terrible person.

Swindled?

He accepted a loan to move his business and then his business failed.  How is that a swindle?

He's legally in the clear on the issue.

Did he do a poor job of running his company?  Sure.  But shouldn't Rhode Island have been a bit more careful about their money?

A video game studio doesn't seem like a good target for that type of loan to me.

[wildbillhiccup]

51 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

You would root against Villar due to your dislike of me? Wow....... I am sure I can go back over the last week and point out the times that you were wrong. But is there really any point?

If it got you to stop complaining about the team releasing him then absolutely. It's like being stuck in a room with the same song on repeat. It has much more to do with you beating an angry drum for a week than who's right or wrong. 

[wildbillhiccup]

51 minutes ago, Sessh said:

Made you want to? You've been carrying this huge, irrational grudge against Villar for most of last season. I doubt atomic has anything to do with it. You just want desperately to be right about him. You want him to fail so you can be right.

..and the more our rookie GM and the FO he assembled would (hopefully) learn. I'm all for that.

Yes, I think he's overrated, but it's never been anything personal (on my end). But this last week has been nothing but personal attacks and complaints about the owners and GM when NONE OF US have any idea what transpired. Jumping to conclusions and saying that Elias is incompetent because he wouldn't potentially pay Villar $10M to play on a last place team or because he didn't trade him for a big haul (when there clearly wasn't a market for him) is the very definition of an irrational grudge. 

 

[MurphDogg]

22 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Swindled?

He accepted a loan to move his business and then his business failed.  How is that a swindle?

He's legally in the clear on the issue.

Did he do a poor job of running his company?  Sure.  But shouldn't Rhode Island have been a bit more careful about their money?

A video game studio doesn't seem like a good target for that type of loan to me.

Now he is. There were multiple lawsuits resulting in settlements totaling $61 million, and another that was dismissed in June.

[Frobby]

Just now, wildbillhiccup said:

Yes, I think he's overrated, but it's never been anything personal (on my end). 

I defended Villar many times last summer, including responding to posts by you.    But it’s clear to me now that I overrated him, or perhaps more accurately, overrated the interest that other teams would have in him.    I’d have thought a 2B/SS who just had a 4 WAR season would draw more interest, even if (1) he wasn’t deemed likely to replicate that season, and (2) WAR was thought to be an inaccurate measure in his case.   But I was clearly wrong.   

I see that some posters are saying Elias somehow blew the negotiations and could have gotten more.      But I’m not sure that’s the case.    
 

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, MurphDogg said:

Now he is. There were multiple lawsuits resulting in settlements totaling $61 million, and another that was dismissed in June.

And any evidence that he "swindled" the State?

[wildbillhiccup]

22 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I defended Villar many times last summer, including responding to posts by you.    But it’s clear to me now that I overrated him, or perhaps more accurately, overrated the interest that other teams would have in him.    I’d have thought a 2B/SS who just had a 4 WAR season would draw more interest, even if (1) he wasn’t deemed likely to replicate that season, and (2) WAR was thought to be an inaccurate measure in his case.   But I was clearly wrong.   

I see that some posters are saying Elias somehow blew the negotiations and could have gotten more.      But I’m not sure that’s the case.    
 

You hit the nail on the head. At the end of the day it doesn't matter how either of us value him; it matters how the other GMs value him. I think it's MUCH more likely that MLB was down on him than it is that Elias botched the trade negotiations. 

Honestly, all of this rage should be directed at the canceling of FanFest. That's my only beef with the franchise over last few months. 

[DrungoHazewood]

40 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I defended Villar many times last summer, including responding to posts by you.    But it’s clear to me now that I overrated him, or perhaps more accurately, overrated the interest that other teams would have in him.    I’d have thought a 2B/SS who just had a 4 WAR season would draw more interest, even if (1) he wasn’t deemed likely to replicate that season, and (2) WAR was thought to be an inaccurate measure in his case.   But I was clearly wrong.   

I see that some posters are saying Elias somehow blew the negotiations and could have gotten more.      But I’m not sure that’s the case.    
 

WAR is fine.  It's just that he's likely to be a 2-2.5 WAR player in 2020, paid $10M.  You don't get a whole lot coming back on <$10M in surplus value.  If you're buying a free agent $10M gets you a single year of an average-ish player.  Or often a risky guy who ends up as Yovani Gallardo.

[spleen1015]

Davis increases our chances for #1 picks. Villar decreases our chances for #1 picks.

[Sessh]

2 hours ago, wildbillhiccup said:

Yes, I think he's overrated, but it's never been anything personal (on my end). But this last week has been nothing but personal attacks and complaints about the owners and GM when NONE OF US have any idea what transpired. Jumping to conclusions and saying that Elias is incompetent because he wouldn't potentially pay Villar $10M to play on a last place team or because he didn't trade him for a big haul (when there clearly wasn't a market for him) is the very definition of an irrational grudge.

Well, I don't think Elias is incompetent, but I do think he bungled the Villar situation and I believe it to be a correct assessment that he did publicly show too many of his cards with regards to his intentions. I have been in agreement with almost everything else he's done since taking the job, but I still don't like the move, how it was handled and how it ultimately concluded, but oh well. I'm willing to give him a pass on it, though.

1 hour ago, DrungoHazewood said:

WAR is fine.  It's just that he's likely to be a 2-2.5 WAR player in 2020, paid $10M.

See, I don't get this. As an everyday player the last four years, his WARs are 3.9, 0.1, 2.7 and 4.0. How is it that you or anyone can project him at a WAR that is lower than three of those four years? Why is it "likely" that he will be worse? With a total of 10.7 WAR, that averages out to almost 2.7, but his projection is lower than that? I'm not saying it's not possible that he will fall in the range you suggest, but I take issue with saying it's "likely" to happen. Based on what is it likely?

[Roll Tide]

3 hours ago, wildbillhiccup said:

If it got you to stop complaining about the team releasing him then absolutely. It's like being stuck in a room with the same song on repeat. It has much more to do with you beating an angry drum for a week than who's right or wrong. 

Well first ...You are just being a troll!

Second .... There is an ignore button that will allow you to not read my posts in the future! I recommend you use it!

Third .... You've taken the same exact approach but in the opposite direction. So talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

.....I've provided links at Frobby's request this evening in the Villar thread that strongly supports my position and assumptions. And guys like you have not responded and its easy to assume why.

Finally .... Your so dug in on your hate that the crap your saying is factually wrong after the fact! As it turns out he wasn't released and the media was way wrong on the story. So why do I need to continue to complain about something that didn't actually happen