Random question about Pearce & Reynolds

[HowAboutThat]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

Bell: 6 Gold Gloves

Brett: 1 Gold Glove

I don’t think anyone was under any illusions that Brett was as good as Bell defensively.   

Most people that I read ignored his defense and lauded his defense,  But I remember one writer, I think in sports illustrated, who jokingly said he had 36 homeruns .., and 36 errors.

[HowAboutThat]

1 hour ago, DrungoHazewood said:

  In my mind I think that Bell and Harrah are the same person.

Texas traded Harrah for Bell straight up in December(?) 1978.

Harrah, Bell, and Mike Hargrove were my favorite players until Raffy came along. Was very fond of Al Oliver too.

overall, Bell may have been ~15th, but as a defender I think he’s got the third best dWAR of any 3B not in the Hall, and better than most who ARE in the hall. If he were a Yankee, he’d have been in.

[Larry18]

I can not imagine playing third on the AstroTurf of 40 years ago.

[GuidoSarducci]

9 hours ago, Philip said:

The thing about Brett and Bell, was everybody said oh Brett is the best third baseman in the game when what they really meant was he was an excellent hitter. Buddy Bell was better, and one of the best third baseman in the game. His defensive WAR is fifth or sixth all time. He was one of my favorite players back when I was a kid and a Ranger fan, and everybody was going ape over George Brett because George Brett could hit.

Yes I’m sure it seems a little bit odd for me to be mentioning it, especially on an Orioles site, But it always rankled me that Bell never got his due.

Going by BBref, George Brett was a slightly above average third baseman defensively and a phenomenal third baseman offensively.  Buddy Bell was a phenomenal third baseman defensively and very good third baseman offensively.   WAR says Brett was the better player for most years they played. 

I was thinking of the situation with Ripken, though not exactly comparable - how he kept lose Golden Gloves to Trammel/Fernandez/Guillen/Vizquel.  But many considered him the best shortstop in the game (or at least the AL) even if they didn't think he was the best defensive shortstop.  What made them great is the combination of offense and defense.

[Frobby]

10 hours ago, Philip said:

overall, Bell may have been ~15th, but as a defender I think he’s got the third best dWAR of any 3B not in the Hall, and better than most who ARE in the hall. If he were a Yankee, he’d have been in.

By Total Zone Runs:

1.   Brooks 293

2.   Beltre 168 (sorry, Andre...)

3.    Bell 167

...

31.   Machado 55

32.   Brett 54

Bell is also 3rd all-time in dWAR of all 3B, not just those not in the Hall.   

There are some very good 3B not in the Hall:

Rolen 70.1 rWAR

Nettles 68.3

Bell 66.0

Still, hard to say that Bell would be in the Hall if he’d been a Yankee, when you have Nettles not in the Hall after playing 11 seasons in New York.

 

[DrungoHazewood]

10 hours ago, Philip said:

Texas traded Harrah for Bell straight up in December(?) 1978.

Harrah, Bell, and Mike Hargrove were my favorite players until Raffy came along. Was very fond of Al Oliver too.

overall, Bell may have been ~15th, but as a defender I think he’s got the third best dWAR of any 3B not in the Hall, and better than most who ARE in the hall. If he were a Yankee, he’d have been in.

Graig Nettles was about as good with the glove at third as Bell, was his direct peer, hit twice as many homers, led the league in homers in '76, played in seven post-seasons, made six all star games, and was a Yankee for most of his career.  And never got 10% of the vote for the Hall.

[DrungoHazewood]

2 hours ago, GuidoSarducci said:

Going by BBref, George Brett was a slightly above average third baseman defensively and a phenomenal third baseman offensively.  Buddy Bell was a phenomenal third baseman defensively and very good third baseman offensively.   WAR says Brett was the better player for most years they played. 

I was thinking of the situation with Ripken, though not exactly comparable - how he kept lose Golden Gloves to Trammel/Fernandez/Guillen/Vizquel.  But many considered him the best shortstop in the game (or at least the AL) even if they didn't think he was the best defensive shortstop.  What made them great is the combination of offense and defense.

Unless you specifically say so, nobody is talking about just fielding when you say greatest X of all time.  It's the whole package.  Mike Schmidt was clearly the greatest third baseman of all time, even if he's not Brooks or even Buddy Bell with the glove.  Nobody says Keith Hernandez is the greatest first baseman of all time, even though he has the highest defensive ratings at the position of anyone since 1900.  They say Lou Gehrig because, duh.

[Frobby]

14 hours ago, Frobby said:

You’d have to specify the era, since there has been so much salary inflation over the years.   Reggie Jackson was the highest paid player in baseball at one point, and he made under $10 mm in his career.    Eddie Murray signed the biggest contract in baseball history at a later point and he made $30.3 mm in his career.     A $30 mm benchmark is probably only useful if you are limiting this to guys who retired in 2010 or later.    

I don’t have time to research this right now, but Ronnie Belliard retired in 2010 with 20.8 rWAR over 13 years and yet only made $15.5 mm in his career.   Lots of guys retired in 2010 with lower rWAR  than him who made more than $30 mm.    
 

This list won’t be complete because BB-ref only lists retirements up through 2015:

- Grady Sizemore (ret. 2015) was worth 27.7 rWAR in 10 seasons and made $30.9 mm.

- Orlando Hudson (ret. 2012) was worth 30.9 rWAR in 11 seasons and made $31.3 mm.

- Adam Kennedy (ret. 2012) was worth 20.9 rWAR in 14 seasons and made $21.0 mm.

- Craig Counsell (ret. 2011) was worth 22.0 rWAR in 16 seasons and made $21.0 mm.

Lesson: playing 2B does not pay.

 

[HowAboutThat]

6 hours ago, Frobby said:

By Total Zone Runs:

1.   Brooks 293

2.   Beltre 168 (sorry, Andre...)

3.    Bell 167

...

31.   Machado 55

32.   Brett 54

Bell is also 3rd all-time in dWAR of all 3B, not just those not in the Hall.   

There are some very good 3B not in the Hall:

Rolen 70.1 rWAR

Nettles 68.3

Bell 66.0

Still, hard to say that Bell would be in the Hall if he’d been a Yankee, when you have Nettles not in the Hall after playing 11 seasons in New York.

 

I have two reactions to your comment, first, thank you very much for taking the time to look it up, and secondly, my God, Brooks was a great third baseman!

[Enjoy Terror]

Hmm Steve Pearce’s #1 comp is Larry Sheets.

Reynolds’ is Jay Bruce.