Does Merv Rettenmund belong in the Orioles Hall of Fame?

[DrungoHazewood]

On 12/20/2020 at 2:09 PM, Ridgway22 said:

Trivia: in the MLB HOF there is a PLAYER inducted who only played two seasons in the MLB, going 21-22 with a 2.78 ERA, Candy Cummings. He was elected in by the Veteran's committee in 1939, apparently he is credited with inventing the curveball.

Cummings was inducted in the Hall in 1939 for his contributions as a pioneer, not as a player.  Although I think you could make a semi-reasonable case for his induction as a player.  He was 23 when the National Association (the first professional league) was founded in 1871 and had been pitching on amateur and semi-pro teams for at least six years prior to that.  Including the famous Excelsior club of Brooklyn.  He was one of the best pitchers of the '71 NA, and continued to be a good pitcher through 1876.  But even throwing underhanded his arm was shot averaging over 400 innings a season by the age of 28. It's claimed he never weighed over 120 pounds in his life.

He was one of the early adopters of the curveball, although with any Genesis stories there's some dispute as to whether or not he actually did the inventing.  It's likely multiple pitchers independently figured out how to throw a curve, and he was just one of the people who helped popularize it.

In 1873 he pitched for the Baltimore Canaries, going 28-14 in 382 innings.  The Canaries finished 3rd, and were Baltimore's first professional league team.  They had a number of players recognizable to a fan of the 1870s, including Cal McVey (early slugger on best teams of the 1870s), Davy Force (5'4" SS who regularly jumped teams in the pre-reserve clause era), Lip Pike (led the league in homers four times with totals of 4, 7, 4, and 4), George Hall (first NL homer champ, banned in the '77 Louisville scandal), Cummings and Asa Brainard (primary pitcher for the 1869 Reds).

[Just Regular]

1 hour ago, DrungoHazewood said:

The real Hall shifted from inner circle guys to something else about 1945, so if you're mad at it being watered down you need to be mad at folks who've been dead for 50 years.  The O's Hall of Fame inducted Gene Woodling almost 30 years ago, and Woodling played the equivalent of three non-playoff years for the O's in his mid-30s. 

Both Halls of Fame have their critics who think the bars are waaaay too low, but they've been about where they are today for a long time.  If anything the standards applied to today's players are much higher than they were 50 years ago (at least for the Cooperstown Hall).

I've seen observations about the relative under-representation of guys born in more recent years.  Even a fairly straightforward HOF on merit like Mussina had to muddle through grumbling about certain black ink type numbers, and with today's pitcher usage changes....we could be like 8 years away from a debate on Jacob DeGrom, three or four Cy Young Awards, and maybe 125 wins.

As to the OP, that gave me flashbacks to Jay Jaffe on Tim Raines back in the day!   At least once Bert Blyleven was done.

 

[drjohnnyfeva]

5 hours ago, SteveA said:

The team HOF doesn't have to meet objective standards, IMO.  It's kind of a feel good thing that let's people connect with their youth.  If a guy was popular and loved and means something to the fans, he should be in there.  I believe Wild Bill Hagy is in, and according to bbref his career war is 0.0.

Sounds like Rettenmund has a statistical case if that's all you care about.  And I'm sure there's a certain point of find memories of only because he was a part of some great teams...that's probably why Dauer is in as well.  Lowenstein and Elrod are in because of how beloved they were by fans, which is 100% fine with me.  If you want to have a HOF based strictly on WAR or some completely objective stat or set of stats, you can do that.  It's called an Excel spreadsheet and every can make one on their own computer.

To me, Merv is in the Dauer category..a decent player on some great teams, maybe never as big a fan favorite and never a star.  The kind of guy who, if he doesn't make the list, probably no one noticed except the rare few folks who made him their favorite player at the time.  Imagine if Elrod wasn't in the O's HOF on the other hand, there would be articles written about the injustice that needs to be fixed.

I can go either way on Rettenmund, but I really don't care about the statistical argument.  Trying to boil a guy down to one number and rank him ahead or behind someone based on else is not something I am really interested in doing when it comes to Halls of Fame, though I know there are folks like Bill James who have spent endless hours doing that.   

Especially with a team HOF, which is just a reason to celebrate a team's history and connect generations of fans and players.  What is more important for fans to know 30 years from now, that there was a guy named Merv who spent a chunk of his career as a 4th outfielder and supporting character on some great Oriole teams and whose stats look pretty good by modern standards, or that there was a guy named Elrod who wore the uniform more games than anyone else, was universally loved by fans despite not being all that great a player?  I go with the latter, every time.

 

I don't disagree with any of this.  I am right on board completely with the comparison to Rich Dauer, tho.  He was the first guy I thought of on my teams who I thought Merv was probably like in that slightly earlier era.  Dauer is in, btw.  But when you have office people - not to diminish their role - but kinda the polar opposite of your Ellie Hendricks example of someone who everybody knows and loves, it seems like some Merv-ish types maybe deserve a little more consideration.  I was kind of surprised Terry Crowley wasn't in there, if for no other reason than he was made eternally famous from Earl's famous Manager Corner segment.

[Ruzious]

No.  Rettenmund was a good player on some of the great O's teams, but he's not an O's HOFer.  He's a level below Don Buford - who did make it.  Merv was a good hitter but a relatively poor OFer, and he was a platoon player for a lot of his tenure with the O's.  

[Frobby]

13 minutes ago, drjohnnyfeva said:

I don't disagree with any of this.  I am right on board completely with the comparison to Rich Dauer, tho.  He was the first guy I thought of on my teams who I thought Merv was probably like in that slightly earlier era.  Dauer is in, btw.  

See, I don’t think Dauer is comparable at all.   To me he’s the opposite side of the coin.   Rettenmund was a fourth outfielder who on most teams would have been a starter, and he packed a lot of value into his limited role (hence 17.0 rWAR in 570 games).    Dauer on the other hand was a very average player who did not face serious competition for his spot (unless you call Billy Smith serious competition).    He produced less WAR than Rettenmund (14.4 to 17.0) despite playing in exactly twice as many games as an Oriole (1140 to 570).    I think Dauer’s case rests largely on the fact that he played so many games as an Oriole (16th on their all time list), whereas one of the big holes in Rettenmund’s case is that he played in relatively few games compared to most Orioles HOFers (off the top of my head, only Gene Woodling and Robbie Alomar played in fewer games as an Oriole among position players in their HOF).    He’s between David Segui (580) and Curt Blefary (567) on the games played list.

 

[Frobby]

11 minutes ago, Ruzious said:

No.  Rettenmund was a good player on some of the great O's teams, but he's not an O's HOFer.  He's a level below Don Buford - who did make it.  Merv was a good hitter but a relatively poor OFer, and he was a platoon player for a lot of his tenure with the O's.  

The stats don’t show him as a poor OFer at all.    Honestly, I don’t remember his defense one way or the other.    

If Don Buford was the standard for the bottom of the OHOF, I’d agree Rettenmund falls short.   But when you’ve got Roenicke, Lowenstein and Woodling among your OHOF outfielders, it’s a lot easier to make the case for Rettenmund.   
 

[Ridgway22]

6 hours ago, Ruzious said:

No.  Rettenmund was a good player on some of the great O's teams, but he's not an O's HOFer.  He's a level below Don Buford - who did make it.  Merv was a good hitter but a relatively poor OFer, and he was a platoon player for a lot of his tenure with the O's.  

Just curious, what is the "poor OFer" based on. As just an idiot fan, I have no first hand knowledge, especially for outfielders from the 60's / 70's. However, his hindsight analytical ratings support being above average, and as crazy as it might seem, his strat-o-matic card ratings are overall positive. 

[Chuck A]

8 hours ago, Ridgway22 said:

Just curious, what is the "poor OFer" based on. As just an idiot fan, I have no first hand knowledge, especially for outfielders from the 60's / 70's. However, his hindsight analytical ratings support being above average, and as crazy as it might seem, his strat-o-matic card ratings are overall positive. 

Not to mention that he could play all 3 OF positions well.  I think "poor OFer" is incorrect.  His arm was very much average though. 

[Redskins Rick]

On 12/20/2020 at 9:31 AM, Frobby said:

Merv Rettenmund is arguably the most underrated former Oriole.  He had a 20 rWAR career, 17 rWAR as an Oriole.    He had individual seasons of 5.9 (1971), 4.8 (1970) and 4.3 (1973), all of which were playoff seasons for the Orioles, including a World Series championship team and another pennant winner.    He was in the top 5 in WAR on the team in all three of those seasons (2nd only to Brooks in 1971).    

It’s kind of amazing that Rettenmund packed so much value into his career.    He only qualified for the batting title once, in 1971.   He was 3rd in the league in batting and 2nd in OBP that year among qualifiers, playing in 141 games, 129 as a starter.   Otherwise, he never played more than 107 games in a season.   As an Oriole, he only played 570 games in six seasons.   And yet, the 17 rWAR he accrued are more than many Orioles Hall of Famers, such as Gus Triandos (13.2 in 953 games), Luis Aparicio (16.4 in 721 games), Jim Gentile (14.8 in 583 games), Lee May (4.5 in 794 games), Elrod Hendricks (7.3 rWAR in 657 games), Harold Baines (9.5 rWAR in 666 games), Mike Bordick (14.5 rWAR in 739 games), Rich Dauer (14.4 rWAR in 1140 games), Roberto Alomar (12.5 rWAR in 412 games), John Lowenstein (7.2 rWAR in 745 games) and Gary Roenicke (15.7 rWAR in 850 games).    And that’s just the position players!

I think Rettenmund suffers from having had skills that were underappreciated in the era when he played — very high OBP (5th all time for the Orioles at .383) and solid defensive abilities (+30 Rtot as an Orioles outfielder).    Plus, he’s simply overshadowed by Frank Robinson, Paul Blair and Don Buford in his era as an Orioles OF.

So, what say you?    Should Rettenmund be in the Orioles HOF?

(Credit to poster Ridgway22 for bringing this topic to my attention.) 

 

Good post, and I have no objections.

Amazing how some posters feel there should be standards before putting somebody in the organization Hall of Fame. Its a feel good thing for the fans and a little love back to the player. How wrong is that?

 

[Frobby]

7 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

Good post, and I have no objections.

Amazing how some posters feel there should be standards before putting somebody in the organization Hall of Fame. Its a feel good thing for the fans and a little love back to the player. How wrong is that?

 

It occurred to me today: shouldn’t  your screen name be “Football Team Rick” now?  

And by the way, when did the pro football forums disappear?   I almost never posted there, but I just noticed that they’re gone.    Did they disappear a long time ago?

[drjohnnyfeva]

15 hours ago, Frobby said:

See, I don’t think Dauer is comparable at all.   To me he’s the opposite side of the coin.   Rettenmund was a fourth outfielder who on most teams would have been a starter, and he packed a lot of value into his limited role (hence 17.0 rWAR in 570 games).    Dauer on the other hand was a very average player who did not face serious competition for his spot (unless you call Billy Smith serious competition).    He produced less WAR than Rettenmund (14.4 to 17.0) despite playing in exactly twice as many games as an Oriole (1140 to 570).    I think Dauer’s case rests largely on the fact that he played so many games as an Oriole (16th on their all time list), whereas one of the big holes in Rettenmund’s case is that he played in relatively few games compared to most Orioles HOFers (off the top of my head, only Gene Woodling and Robbie Alomar played in fewer games as an Oriole among position players in their HOF).    He’s between David Segui (580) and Curt Blefary (567) on the games played list.

 

I was remarking more on the "unheralded" aspect of the two players more than the numbers... Clearly from some of the players in the O's Hall, numbers are not the only consideration.  Dauer, as you point out, is one of those examples.  I think there's room for both, yet I remain impressed by what I've learned number-wise about Merv.

[Redskins Rick]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

It occurred to me today: shouldn’t  your screen name be “Football Team Rick” now?  

And by the way, when did the pro football forums disappear?   I almost never posted there, but I just noticed that they’re gone.    Did they disappear a long time ago?

It has to do with OH taking a day off and when it came back the forums wasnt showing up for me until I ask why, think Tony has to flip a switch. Nobody is really posting there, not even in the Raven's category.

I asked Weams permission to change my posting name, back in 2018, but never followed up on, as Atomic started complaining about how offensive it was, and I wasnt going to let him dictate my posting name.

[Frobby]

8 minutes ago, drjohnnyfeva said:

I was remarking more on the "unheralded" aspect of the two players more than the numbers... Clearly from some of the players in the O's Hall, numbers are not the only consideration.  Dauer, as you point out, is one of those examples.  I think there's room for both, yet I remain impressed by what I've learned number-wise about Merv.

The numbers came as a surprise to me.   I’d say Rettenmund was even less heralded than Dauer.    

It’s funny how you remember things in terms of what stats were available and emphasized at the time.   I certainly could have told you that Rettenmund hit over .300 two years in a row.   And that’s about all I could have told you, prior to looking him up.   
 

[Sports Guy]

10 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

It has to do with OH taking a day off and when it came back the forums wasnt showing up for me until I ask why, think Tony has to flip a switch. Nobody is really posting there, not even in the Raven's category.

I asked Weams permission to change my posting name, back in 2018, but never followed up on, as Atomic started complaining about how offensive it was, and I wasnt going to let him dictate my posting name.

That’s all the more reason to keep the name.

[Frobby]

8 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

I asked Weams permission to change my posting name, back in 2018, but never followed up on, as Atomic started complaining about how offensive it was, and I wasnt going to let him dictate my posting name.

May as well wait until they decide on a new mascot!   Of course, if they make the playoffs as WFT, they may just want to keep that for a while.