More second guessing Hyde: Pitching

[bpilktree]

The only arguement anyone could have is the Wells decision over Sulsar at the end but I have seen seen a few people say why bring in guys who pitched yesterday.  If your top 3 bullpen guys that you use in holding a close lead that many thing are here for the future can’t go back to back then you should get rid of them because those guys will go back to back days often on winning teams.  The years we had Buck and one of the best bullpens if it was a close game with a lead he was going Brach, O’Day, Britton almost every time it didn’t matter if they pitched the day before. Almost every manager goes that way if you have three guys you trust much more over the others.  Now the Wells over Sulsar point we don’t know how many times he had Sulsar up already(I know once for sure) but most managers won’t get a guy up and ready more then twice.  Wells was a healthy outfielder away from getting Bichette out and ending the game with a soft fly ball.  
 

The Orioles need to decide if Santander is healthy enough to help the team right now especially with Hays not 100% still and Stewart not a good outfielder.  If he isn’t then you get McKenna up here to play as the 4th outfielder and Stewart and Hays at the corners.  The best outfield defense with the current roster Hyde has may actually be Hays in right, Mullins in center and Wilkerson in left and use that late in games with Valika going to second.  

[HowAboutThat]

1 hour ago, bpilktree said:

 If your top 3 bullpen guys that you use in holding a close lead that many thing are here for the future can’t go back to back then you should get rid of them

Yes that’s correct and Patton, Strop, ODay and Johnson have as a thing of beauty in 2012.

The problem is that none of the guys we have is reliable. All of them are roll the dice guys. With that in mind, whoever is more rested Becomes more important, because there is so little buffer zone between a good outing and the bad one. And the first things that go away when one is tired are velocity and command.

[SteveA]

4 hours ago, Philip said:

Fair question:

On Friday, Wells Scott, Fry and Harvey all threw between 14-20 pitches. 

On Thursday Tate threw 32 pitches and Sceroler 29 so even with a days rest you want to avoid them if possible. Plutko threw 44 pitches on Tuesday and he’s not very good. But Sulser only threw 12 pitches on Thursday and Hyde had him warming on Saturday so he was obviously able to come in.

So why choose Fry over Sulser, who’d had a day off and only threw 12 pitches the previous day? And when you pull Fry, why bring in Wells, who threw 19 pitches the day before, when Sulser was already warmed and ready? 
 

 

 

4 hours ago, Philip said:

Fair question:

On Friday, Wells Scott, Fry and Harvey all threw between 14-20 pitches. 

On Thursday Tate threw 32 pitches and Sceroler 29 so even with a days rest you want to avoid them if possible. Plutko threw 44 pitches on Tuesday and he’s not very good. But Sulser only threw 12 pitches on Thursday and Hyde had him warming on Saturday so he was obviously able to come in.

So why choose Fry over Sulser, who’d had a day off and only threw 12 pitches the previous day? And when you pull Fry, why bring in Wells, who threw 19 pitches the day before, when Sulser was already warmed and ready? 
 

 

Great answer, and I tend to agree.   Although a short one inning reliever should usually be good for two days in a row.

 

[Three Run Homer]

Doesn't it seem like Hyde always leaves Harvey in way too long?  Lately he's been in a pattern of pitching well for a few innings and then suddenly falling apart.  Today he should have come out after the walk to Guerrero at the latest, but instead hyde leaves him in just long enough for the game to get out of hand.

[maybenxtyr]

9 minutes ago, Three Run Homer said:

Doesn't it seem like Hyde always leaves Harvey in way too long?  Lately he's been in a pattern of pitching well for a few innings and then suddenly falling apart.  Today he should have come out after the walk to Guerrero at the latest, but instead hyde leaves him in just long enough for the game to get out of hand.

They can't pull Harvey and Lopez and any other pitcher after 3 innings every night. Honestly, I want Hyde to leave them in as long as possible so maybe at some point Elias will start bringing up another wave of talent. These games mean absolutely nothing at this point.

[HowAboutThat]

3 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

None of those guys pitched that many pitches.  These guys can easily handle back to back days.  If they can’t, cut them.  Either way, it’s crazy to put it on Hyde’s shoulders.  
 

And he wants to see what Wells can do in high leverage situations.  I like using him there to see how good he can be.  He has been excellent for a while now.

If you’re saying you agree with bringing wells in, even after having thrown ~14 hours earlier, when you have a fresh reliever already warmed up and ready to go, Well then, I guess we’re just going to have to politely disagree and move on.

However I am not wrong, and being annoyed at the bullpen usage is entirely justified.

And for what it’s worth, all four of the tired guys he brought in gave up runs. That should tell him some thing, and you too.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Philip

[bpilktree]

11 minutes ago, Philip said:

If you’re saying you agree with bringing wells in, even after having thrown ~14 hours earlier, when you have a fresh reliever already warmed up and ready to go, Well then, I guess we’re just going to have to politely disagree and move on.

However I am not wrong, and being annoyed at the bullpen usage is entirely justified.

And for what it’s worth, all four of the tired guys he brought in gave up runs. That should tell him some thing, and you too.

So no guys should pitch in back to back games.  How many pitchers are you going to go through.  Bullpen guys go back to back all the time.  If you can’t use your top guys in back to back games they are about worthless.  Just last week vs the Indians Terry Franconia used his top two in three straight games and they got job done.  

[bpilktree]

1 hour ago, Three Run Homer said:

Doesn't it seem like Hyde always leaves Harvey in way too long?  Lately he's been in a pattern of pitching well for a few innings and then suddenly falling apart.  Today he should have come out after the walk to Guerrero at the latest, but instead hyde leaves him in just long enough for the game to get out of hand.

Watch the guys he has to pitch this game and you will see why he lets guys stay in longer then some like.  He has two guys in Valdez and Sceroler that can’t get guys out.  You have 4 other guys that are not available today after pitching last two games so you either push him a bit farther then you should or you let Valdez try to get someone out.  

[HowAboutThat]

23 minutes ago, bpilktree said:

So no guys should pitch in back to back games.  How many pitchers are you going to go through.  Bullpen guys go back to back all the time.  If you can’t use your top guys in back to back games they are about worthless.  Just last week vs the Indians Terry Franconia used his top two in three straight games and they got job done.  

We don’t have Francona’s bullpen, we have ours, so your comment is irrelevant.

Hyde had other options, all of which were fresh, and it is obvious that in addition to being a poor decision before the fact, it was a bad decision after the fact. Not only that but ALL FOUR Of the guys he used had pitched the previous day, not even 24 hours earlier. Is he trying to prove some kind of point? Does he really

He is handicapped by the fact that none of his guys is exceptionally good, they are all wildly inconsistent, and your suggestion that they are worthless is a defensible, albeit extreme, position.

With that in mind it is all the more important to use the guys with the fewest handicaps in the moment, which means use your freshest guy, and don’t use four guys today, all of whom pitched last night.

If Santander makes the catch We win the game, but it’s still a bad decision, it’s not even a defensible position it’s just bad.
 

[Sports Guy]

5 hours ago, Philip said:

If you’re saying you agree with bringing wells in, even after having thrown ~14 hours earlier, when you have a fresh reliever already warmed up and ready to go, Well then, I guess we’re just going to have to politely disagree and move on.

However I am not wrong, and being annoyed at the bullpen usage is entirely justified.

And for what it’s worth, all four of the tired guys he brought in gave up runs. That should tell him some thing, and you too.

Yea, it tells me that none of them are that good.  For whatever reason, you can’t seem to comprehend that thought.  I don’t know why, maybe you are just an awful judge of talent?

[Explosivo]

Sulser was available. Both wells and sulser may be terrible, but one was well rested. No way to tell if Sulser would have had more success there but all things being equal talent wise, you might get more out of an arm that hasn’t thrown the day before. That being said, Hyde has a track record of pushing the wrong buttons consistently.

[Moose Milligan]

14 hours ago, Philip said:

Moose you need to reread what I wrote. I understand and he has no control over the guys he has, but he has control over how he uses them, and uses them badly.

You still don't understand.

Why are you quibbling over how he uses bad players?  Why are you so worked up about Hyde using a D+ reliever when there was a C- option?  

[Three Run Homer]

8 hours ago, maybenxtyr said:

They can't pull Harvey and Lopez and any other pitcher after 3 innings every night. Honestly, I want Hyde to leave them in as long as possible so maybe at some point Elias will start bringing up another wave of talent. These games mean absolutely nothing at this point.

Tampa has had a lot of success using openers--guys who are good for one time through the order.  That's probably the best role for Lopez and for Harvey.  

[maybenxtyr]

5 hours ago, Three Run Homer said:

Tampa has had a lot of success using openers--guys who are good for one time through the order.  That's probably the best role for Lopez and for Harvey.  

Probably. The O's just do not have the pitchers that can follow these guys on a nightly basis. 

[Sports Guy]

And btw, Hyde is managing for more than just one game.  He is trying to evaluate these guys on whether they can do certain things.

Can Fry close games on back to back days?  If he can, does that elevate his trade value?  Can Wells be as good in high leverage situations?  
 

The Os were up 7-1, they took a 3 run lead into the 9th, which is the easiest save situation lead to hold.  Even when Wells came in, he needed to get 1 out before they scored 2 runs.  Your odds are very high that these things get accomplished whether someone pitched the day before or not.  Relievers go back to back games all the time, even subpar ones, and still end up being successful.

Santander should have caught that ball and it’s over.

Chances are, if Sulser comes in and blows it, this thread is started by someone else who doesn’t get it.