Keuchel??

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, OriolesMagic83 said:

Not all of course, some might turn into solid regulars who would cost $15-20 mill/yr at free agent prices.  Some will fail totally.  There are signs the O's want to follow the Rays payroll just as much as the Rays farm system.

Do the Rays make a habit of gaming service time?

I've never noticed.

[OriolesMagic83]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

Do the Rays make a habit of gaming service time?

I've never noticed.

I haven't noticed either.  They have a habit of trading players as soon as they get expensive.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

I haven't noticed either.  They have a habit of trading players as soon as they get expensive.

So we need to do what the Rays do but we also need to game service time even though the Rays don't need to.

Makes sense???

What the Rays do is sign key players to team friendly extensions.

[Frobby]

18 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

 

It's a shame that it's impossible to develop once you get to the majors.

I know I'll never forget the legend of that might have been left hander with electric stuff.

Poor Randy Johnson, some folks say to this day that if he had only been allowed more time in the minors he might have eventually learned how to harness his stuff and become one of the top control pitchers in the game. 

Bad analogy.  Randy Johnson threw 400 innings in the minors, including 253 in AA/AAA, before he ever set foot on a major league field.   Hall has thrown 238 innings in the minors, 45 in AA/AAA.   He’s far less prepared than Johnson was.   

That’s not to say that Hall definitely couldn’t have long term success as a major league pitcher if he debuted now.  I just think the Johnson analogy is a poor one.  And I think you’d be pretty hard pressed to find successful pitchers in the last 40-50 years who had 45 innings or less in AA/AAA.    

I do think we’ll see Hall this summer, but only after he has a run of dominance in AAA over several appearances.  13.2 innings at a 4.61 ERA, 1.39 WHIP isn’t when we want him making his major league debut.   His last start was excellent; let’s see him start doing that on a regular basis.   

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

Bad analogy.  Randy Johnson threw 400 innings in the minors, including 253 in AA/AAA, before he ever set foot on a major league field.   Hall has thrown 238 innings in the minors, 45 in AA/AAA.   He’s far less prepared than Johnson was.   

That’s not to say that Hall definitely couldn’t have long term success as a major league pitcher if he debuted now.  I just think the Johnson analogy is a poor one.  And I think you’d be pretty hard pressed to find successful pitchers in the last 40-50 years who had 45 innings or less in AA/AAA.    

I do think we’ll see Hall this summer, but only after he has a run of dominance in AAA over several appearances.  13.2 innings at a 4.61 ERA, 1.39 WHIP isn’t when we want him making his major league debut.   His last start was excellent; let’s see him start doing that on a regular basis.   

The point was that Johnson managed to develop, in the majors, from a player with the worst command to maybe the best in the league.

The idea that folks get into their heads that players have to be fully formed is just ridiculous. 

Oh no, Hall is going to walk some guys?

So what?

He might spend two more years in the minors and still have the same issue.

I'd hate for his lack of command to be the reason the O's lose 104 this year instead of 102.

[OriolesMagic83]

15 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

So we need to do what the Rays do but we also need to game service time even though the Rays don't need to.

Makes sense???

What the Rays do is sign key players to team friendly extensions.

Still waiting for that to happen.  Maybe the O's are more on the A's plan. 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

Still waiting for that to happen.  Maybe the O's are more on the A's plan. 

The O's shouldn't be stating how they are going to follow the Rays' plan if they are going to leave out a key component.

It's disingenuous.

[Frobby]

So the Rays don’t game service time?   Funny how Longoria had 170 days of service time his rookie year (172 is considered a full year).  He only signed a long term deal after the Rays locked him in for an extra year.   

David Price was good enough to pitch in the World Series, but not good enough to make Tampa’s roster the following season until they were sure he could only accumulate 164 days (including his prior stint)  by the end of that year.

Funny how Wander Franco debuted last year about 6-7 days after the latest Super-Two cutoff from the last decade.  

I’d hardly say the Rays haven’t gamed service time.   What is true is that they haven’t been shy about locking their younger players up once they’re in an advantageous position.  


 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Frobby said:

So the Rays don’t game service time?   Funny how Longoria had 170 days of service time his rookie year (172 is considered a full year).  He only signed a long term deal after the Rays locked him in for an extra year.   

David Price was good enough to pitch in the World Series, but not good enough to make Tampa’s roster the following season until they were sure he could only accumulate 164 days (including his prior stint)  by the end of that year.

Funny how Wander Franco debuted last year about 6-7 days after the latest Super-Two cutoff from the last decade.  

I’d hardly say the Rays haven’t gamed service time.   What is true is that they haven’t been shy about locking their younger players up once they’re in an advantageous position.  


 

You deep dived to 2008 and 2009?

OK!

As for Franco, did they game him by your standards?  No.

He had ZERO time above A+ before the 2021 season.

He played a grand total of 40 games above A+ before he made his debut in the majors. 

He was 20 when he made his debut, Hall is 23.

Compared to what the O's have been doing under Elias you can't begin to suggest Franco's promotion was slowed.

[Frobby]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

You deep dived to 2008 and 2009?

OK!

As for Franco, did they game him by your standards?  No.

He had ZERO time above A+ before the 2021 season.

He played a grand total of 40 games above A+ before he made his debut in the majors. 

He was 20 when he made his debut, Hall is 23.

Compared to what the O's have been doing under Elias you can't begin to suggest Franco's promotion was slowed.

OK, fair point on Franco.   As to 2008/09, Longoria is literally the first player I ever remember being obviously manipulated. For me, the whole concept of service time manipulation started with him, and Price was also an extremely obvious case.   I am sure if I wanted to spend the time I could find other examples involving the Rays.   

Further, I think it’s obvious that teams have less incentive to manipulate service time when they are in contention than when they’re not.   

I also don’t think the Orioles have ever said, “we are following the Rays’ plan,” much less “we are going to do everything exactly like the Rays do it.”   There is nothing disingenuous in any references they have made to the Rays’ success IMO.   They’ve simply referenced them as a team that has been successful without having a huge budget.  They’ve mentioned other teams as well, like Cleveland.  They are being realistic when they tell the fan base they’re not going to spend as much as NY, Boston and peak Toronto.   

 

[Can_of_corn]

8 minutes ago, Frobby said:

OK, fair point on Franco.   As to 2008/09, Longoria is literally the first player I ever remember being obviously manipulated. For me, the whole concept of service time manipulation started with him, and Price was also an extremely obvious case.   I am sure if I wanted to spend the time I could find other examples involving the Rays.   

Further, I think it’s obvious that teams have less incentive to manipulate service time when they are in contention than when they’re not.   

I also don’t think the Orioles have ever said, “we are following the Rays’ plan,” much less “we are going to do everything exactly like the Rays do it.”   There is nothing disingenuous in any references they have made to the Rays’ success IMO.   They’ve simply referenced them as a team that has been successful without having a huge budget.  They’ve mentioned other teams as well, like Cleveland.  They are being realistic when they tell the fan base they’re not going to spend as much as NY, Boston and peak Toronto.   

 

I'm fine with saying they gamed the clock of those two, thing is, that was the prior regime.  That would be like calling the O's out for gaming Wieters.

 

[sportsfan8703]

When it comes to Hall and GR, how many more years do you want out of them?  What are the odds both of their arms even hold up in our 6.5 years of control?  I don’t like them wasting precious bullets in the minors. 
 

We shouldn’t have to service clock manipulate with every top prospect. 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, sportsfan8703 said:

When it comes to Hall and GR, how many more years do you want out of them?  What are the odds both of their arms even hold up in our 6.5 years of control?  I don’t like them wasting precious bullets in the minors. 
 

We shouldn’t have to service clock manipulate with every top prospect. 

What are the odds we care about Mountcastle's seventh year?

[Frobby]

52 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

When it comes to Hall and GR, how many more years do you want out of them?  What are the odds both of their arms even hold up in our 6.5 years of control?  I don’t like them wasting precious bullets in the minors. 
 

We shouldn’t have to service clock manipulate with every top prospect. 

We shouldn’t treat Rodriguez and Hall as though they’re the same case.   Rodriguez has been completely dominant and healthy in his career.   Hall has great stuff (arguably as good or better than Rodriguez), but has had command issues and injuries and hasn’t had the dominant run Rodriguez has had.  The argument that Rodriguez has nothing left to prove in the minors is very strong; Hall still has a ways to go.   He could get there pretty quickly with his stuff, but he’s not there yet.  

[Ohfan67]

4 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

The O's shouldn't be stating how they are going to follow the Rays' plan if they are going to leave out a key component.

It's disingenuous.

Disingenuous? That’s baloney. Elias and the Orioles haven’t misled you at all. You are chasing your own tail.