O's should be re-evaluating their training methods

[jdwilde1]

 

32 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

It does seem to take years to ramp up pitchers to full work loads.  When a pitcher has a serious injury, it sets him back years.  1st he'll miss a year or more with the injury.  Then he'll have a couple months of rehabbing.  After rehab, he'll spend the rest of the year ramping up.  Maybe get to 4 innings/start at the end of the year.  The next year is a continuing ramp up and maybe near their pre injury workload.

Where is the research this actually works?

I just posted on this question in the Grayson Rodriguez thread the other day.  To answer your question, there is no medical evidence supporting this approach.  I have a couple of links to articles/medical studies in that post. See page 44 of the thread.

Edited June 6, 2022 by jdwilde1
Added page reference.

[justD]

16 minutes ago, jdwilde1 said:

 

I just posted on this question in the Grayson Rodriguez thread the other day.  To answer your question, there is no medical evidence supporting this approach.  I have a couple of links to articles/medical studies in that post. See page 44 of the thread.

I thought it was a great post.  I'm still looking through the links. 

Quote

  

  

21 hours ago, jdwilde1 said:

I know it’s been discussed plenty on this board, but there continues to be little to know medical evidence supporting the benefit of limiting the current year’s workload based on the prior year’s workload. As stated in a 2015 study published in The Journal of Sports Medicine and Physical Fitness: 

“Restricting the number of innings young Major League Baseball pitchers throw does not prevent injuries, according to new research. The study also found that gradually increasing the total number of innings pitched per season has no effect on young MLB pitchers' risk of future injury.”

 

Rather, the two things that seem to increase the risk of pitching injury is ramping up too quickly at the start of the season and year-round pitching (the latter being more of an issue in youth/amateur baseball).

I think part of the reason teams tend to follow this unsupported approach is based on the perceived need to do something.  Unfortunately, pitching injuries seemingly occur at the same rate regardless of the approach.

 

https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/will-an-innings-limit-in-2021-actually-reduce-injury-risk-for-pitchers/?amphtml

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/04/150406121354.htm

https://chicagoshoulderdoc.com/site/wp-content/uploads/How-many-innings-can-we-throw_-does-workload-influence-injury-risk-in-Major-League-Baseball_-An-analysis-of-professional-starting-pitchers-between-2010-and-2015.pdf

 

 

[justD]

Quote

“It's all arbitrary. Like nobody, nobody knows." said Dr. Hillary Plummer, a biomechanist who is secretary general of the American Baseball Biomechanics Society. "If you go back when Stephen Strasburg was having inning limits, there's no data to support that. I mean, it's all arbitrary in baseball, and a lot of it seems to be like, well, that's just what we've always done. You see injury rates continue to increase. So maybe we need to look at doing something different."

Quote

In talking to a variety of experts in sports medicine, biomechanics and pitching development, Baseball America could not find anyone who has found any statistically significant health benefit in limiting the innings of pitchers based on the innings they threw in a previous year.

From the Baseball America article in the previous post. 

[OriolesMagic83]

I remember reading how Scott Kazmir resurrected his career.  He worked with this guru in Texas who used extreme core strengthening methods.  Not sure it works better than anything else, but it seems there should be  a way to strengthen the ligaments and tendons in a player's arm and reduce injury frequency/severity.

https://www.latimes.com/sports/angels/la-sp-kazmir-athletics-baxter-20140831-story.html

[Orioles0615]

3 hours ago, Frobby said:

By far the most likely answer is coincidence.  It’s not like they had the same injury, or the injuries happened at about the same time.   

In Roch's blog today when Hall was mentioned he stated that Hall had a grade 1 Lat strain. Hopefully Lat Strains don't become a thing

[Jammer7]

They all break. The current regime, and MLB baseball generally, push the velo to max levels. The spin rates are scrutinized heavily. We have all of this data and suddenly, the pitcher has to not only compete with the other team, but with industry standards on performance data.

Means’ injury was inevitable, and so was Rodriguez’ and Halls. With the rise of guys who regularly throw a hundo on the radar gun, or they have amazing spin rates, or they have tremendous fade and depth on their change ups, the torque on the joints is huge.

The hamstrings and obliques are common all over sports, including MLB. The Orioles place great emphasis on physical training, stretching and preparation. It is disheartening for us, and the players. I suspect it has more to do with what players have done than it does with the team’s practices. 

[OriolesMagic83]

28 minutes ago, Orioles0615 said:

In Roch's blog today when Hall was mentioned he stated that Hall had a grade 1 Lat strain. Hopefully Lat Strains don't become a thing

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

What fallacy exists in the OP?

I don't know if it's a fallacy so much as an assertion based on hearsay.  The OP said the Orioles should re-evaluate all their training because they have injuries.  But there's zero data to indicate if a) their injury rate is unusual, or b) the training is related to this hypothetically unusual rate of injury.

[Sports Guy]

7 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I don't know if it's a fallacy so much as an assertion based on hearsay.  The OP said the Orioles should re-evaluate all their training because they have injuries.  But there's zero data to indicate if a) their injury rate is unusual, or b) the training is related to this hypothetically unusual rate of injury.

That’s fine..but I didn’t see any fallacies.

[glenn__davis]

11 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

To be clear...Hall's was in 2019, not current.

[OriolesMagic83]

1 minute ago, glenn__davis said:

To be clear...Hall's was in 2019, not current.

I was about to have a heart attack.  How long was Hall out for then?

[btdart20]

ZGLOBEX spray - Zglobex

I just so happen to be a licensed distributor... 

[btdart20]

Seriously though...  Constant improvement, always question your assumptions and techniques.  Legit feedback loops and an inquisitive mind are important.  Don't change just to change because history has weeded out a lot of junk practices.  However, that shouldn't stop us from questioning the standard while recognizing that there's a limit to our knowledge on 'why' or 'how' these types of things happen.

[DrungoHazewood]

2 minutes ago, btdart20 said:

Seriously though...  Constant improvement, always question your assumptions and techniques.  Legit feedback loops and an inquisitive mind are important.  Don't change just to change because history has weeded out a lot of junk practices.  However, that shouldn't stop us from questioning the standard while recognizing that there's a limit to our knowledge on 'why' or 'how' these types of things happen.

Of course you constantly look for process improvements, keep abreast of the latest information, and always be willing to be introspective.

But do we have any reason to think the Orioles don't do this?  Besides the general "haven't won anything in a long time so they must be doing it wrong" stuff?

[emmett16]

4 hours ago, glenn__davis said:

They all break.  That wasn't just a silly thread. At some point most players get hurt, especially pitchers.

That said, I do think the Orioles have shown a very cautious approach with pitchers, and so far I see no evidence that this prevents injuries. 

As long as you play baseball, you are one throw away from an injury.  That injury could be minimal or it could be career ending.   You do what you can to stay strong and work appropriately, but the rest is pure luck.