Injuries to Pitchers 1982/2022

[WI O’s Fan]

I wonder if anyone has the data on the frequency rate for pitcher injuries comparing 1982 to 2022?  It just seems there is so many more players in today’s game due to injuries.  

[Frobby]

I don’t have any data, but I’m sure more pitchers go on the IL today, and that the total number of days pitchers are on the IL are up significantly from 1982.   Two main reasons:

1.   Greater velocity means greater strain on the body.  For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.  

2.  Teams are just way more cautious these days.  Tell the trainers your arm is feeling a little sore, and you’re going on the IL.  That was less true in 1982.   

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

 

I don’t have any data, but I’m sure more pitchers go on the IL today, and that the total number of days pitchers are on the IL are up significantly from 1982.   Two main reasons:

1.   Greater velocity means greater strain on the body.  For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.  

2.  Teams are just way more cautious these days.  Tell the trainers your arm is feeling a little sore, and you’re going on the IL.  That was less true in 1982.   

3.  Larger percentage of the roster slots are devoted to pitchers.

[Frobby]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

3.  Larger percentage of the roster slots are devoted to pitchers.

True, though the total innings being pitched is the same.   You’d think dividing it up among more pitchers would decrease the number of injuries, wouldn’t you?

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

True, though the total innings being pitched is the same.   You’d think dividing it up among more pitchers would decrease the number of injuries, wouldn’t you?

Individually sure, but not enough to make up for the increase in pitchers.  Probably also more shuffling of pitchers up from the minors.

[JakeRider]

8 hours ago, Frobby said:

 

I don’t have any data, but I’m sure more pitchers go on the IL today, and that the total number of days pitchers are on the IL are up significantly from 1982.   Two main reasons:

1.   Greater velocity means greater strain on the body.  For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.  

2.  Teams are just way more cautious these days.  Tell the trainers your arm is feeling a little sore, and you’re going on the IL.  That was less true in 1982.   

The second point looks very true! In the past they didn't complain much, but today any "scratch" can make them "cry". 

[Frobby]

4 hours ago, JakeRider said:

The second point looks very true! In the past they didn't complain much, but today any "scratch" can make them "cry". 

I don’t think it’s just the players.  The teams are paying these guys so much money that they’re very worried about risking a long term injury by pushing their pitchers too hard.  So, the managers and trainers are very cautious.  

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I don’t think it’s just the players.  The teams are paying these guys so much money that they’re very worried about risking a long term injury by pushing their pitchers too hard.  So, the managers and trainers are very cautious.  

I will say that I think if you are making good but not great money and teams can cut you at their whim with no repercussions it probably does encourage you to not admit to being injured.

[LookinUp]

The NFL just released some data showing more leg injuries occur in the ramp up to the season (e.g., earlier). I wonder if there's any temporal patterns to MLB injuries. 

[DrungoHazewood]

• We do not have any comprehensive injury data from the past, so any speculation about lower injury rates in the past are just that. Pitchers have always gotten hurt at fairly high rates.  In every decade since the 1870s you can find many star pitchers who suddenly lost effectiveness at ages where others pitched another decade.
• Pitchers in the past paced, while today's pitchers are almost exclusively max-effort.  A few pitchers in the past could throw hard for many innings. Most couldn't.
• Clubs determined who could throw 300 innings a year by asking everyone to throw 300 innings a year starting as teenagers and observing who's arms fell off.  Teams today have decided that's sub-optimal.  The stars of the past are the ones who had intact UCLs and rotator cuffs. I'm sure all of them knew countless teammates who didn't make it.
• If Tippy Martinez and Scott McGregor were 20 today it's unknown if they'd be MLB pitchers, as they would have to transition from throwing 85-90 to much harder and it's unknown if their bodies could handle that, or if they would be effective throwing that way to MLB hitters.

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

I don’t think it’s just the players.  The teams are paying these guys so much money that they’re very worried about risking a long term injury by pushing their pitchers too hard.  So, the managers and trainers are very cautious.  

They push them hard in different ways.  I'd bet if you graphed pitcher use, innings/pitches on one axis, and intensity of throwing on the other, there wouldn't be a big difference in area under the curve over time. A handful of oldtimers tried something like max effort for many starts and innings, but most threw at 80% except when they really needed a little extra.  Otherwise they'd break. Today everyone maxes out intensity, but for fewer innings.

And I think injury rate goes up dramatically between 80% and 100% effort.

If you could get MLB to mandate a very small number of pitchers on the roster, like six, after the initial catastrophic injuries from people figuring out how to handle the new environment injuries wouldn't be any higher.  Everyone would just get used to pitchers backing off enough to let them throw 300+ innings.

[Frobby]

11 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

• We do not have any comprehensive injury data from the past, so any speculation about lower injury rates in the past are just that. 

I don’t know of anything comprehensive, but from an old thread of mine, here’s a comparison of days on the IL from 2010-14 to 2015-19 for the AL East teams:

BAL 3003/3037

BOS 3947/4439

NYY 3970/4999

TBR 2267/4003

TOR 3224/3827

That’s all players, not just pitchers.   All five teams up, four by substantial amounts, just in a five year period.  

I actually have the Orioles’ data going back to 2006.  From 2006-2009, O’s players spent 1864 days on the IL.   So, for the O’s:

2006-09: 466 days/yr

2010-14: 601 days/yr

2015-19: 607 days/yr

Note that in 2015-19, the O’s had the lightest number of days missed of any AL East team by a wide margin.

I do have the data in that thread to segregate out the pitchers, I just haven’t done it, as I’d have to go all through a 10-page thread to extract it.  

 

[DrungoHazewood]

17 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I don’t know of anything comprehensive, but from an old thread of mine, here’s a comparison of days on the IL from 2010-14 to 2015-19 for the AL East teams:

 

BAL 3003/3037

BOS 3947/4439

NYY 3970/4999

TBR 2267/4003

TOR 3224/3827

That’s all players, not just pitchers.   All five teams up, four by substantial amounts, just in a five year period.  

I actually have the Orioles’ data going back to 2006.  From 2006-2009, O’s players spent 1864 days on the IL.   So, for the O’s:

2006-09: 466 days/yr

2010-14: 601 days/yr

2015-19: 607 days/yr

Note that in 2015-19, the O’s had the lightest number of days missed of any AL East team by a wide margin.

I do have the data in that thread to segregate out the pitchers, I just haven’t done it, as I’d have to go all through a 10-page thread to extract it.  

 

That's all good information but I'm really talking about comparisons to 1982 or 1962 or 1902.  Many people's baseline assumption is that pitchers didn't get hurt nearly as often back in the day (read: whenever the person saying this was 10), but I don't think there's any quantitative data to support that.

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

I don’t think it’s just the players.  The teams are paying these guys so much money that they’re very worried about risking a long term injury by pushing their pitchers too hard.  So, the managers and trainers are very cautious.  

I certainly think "protecting the investment" is big part of things now. I also think pitchers pushed through pain a bit more than platers today, but a lot of that has to do with pitchers now are protecting their own investment in themselves. 

In 1982, pitchers didn't want to go on the DL/IL and there was a bit of a machismo effect going on that pitching through pain is just part of the business. In the documentary fastball, Nolan Ryan discussed pitching through pain in a year he threw over 300 innings in a season with starts going past 150 pitches many times.

Grant it, few were/are built with Ryan's makeup, tolerance for pain, and abilities, but at the same time, young pitchers are taught at a young age to shut it down when they feel pain. Heck, even when I played in High school in the 80's, none of us ever missed time unless we had "hospital injuries." As a Junior, I was competing for the varsity starting catcher's job when in a out first scrimmage game, some yahoo pitcher hit me with a fastball on the wrist bone on my right hand.

It swelled up so much I had to go to the emergency room to have it xray'd. The x-ray came back negative and they said it was just a bone bruise so I went home. I was unable to really do anything for about a week, but with the season coming up, I know I was going to lose the job if I didn't play. So even with hurting like hell, I went back out and started playing. No trainers (I don't even recall us having a trainer in my high school), no coaches cared, they were just like, "Are you good now?" and me wanting to play was like, "Yep, feeling fine, coach!"

Now a days in high school (at least when I coached back in the 2013-14 timeframe) we would need a doctors note or the trainer to give allow them back on the field once they had gone to the hospital. Just a different time I guess.

Funny thing is, I lost the job anyways to a Sophomore who ended up playing in the minors for a bit after High School. Off to the outfield I went! lol