Hall of Fame committee

[Just Regular]

Brian Kenny had the 16 individuals up deciding this round for the Contemporary Era ballot whose results unveil Sunday.

Players - Chipper, Maddux, Morris, Sandberg, Lee Smith, Big Hurt, Trammell

Execs - Theo, Kim Ng, Arte Moreno, Kenny Williams, Paul Beeston, Dave St. Peter

Media/Historians - Steve Hirdt, LaVelle Neal, Susan Slusser

Most of the panel's Reinsdorf-Larussa-Baines type energy is wondering if the Braves flavor helps McGriff or Dale Murphy.    Apparently Slusser some years ago tweeted general acceptance of steroid guys.

Each voter only gets 3 nominees, and takes 12 of 16 for election, so at most will be 1 or 2 guys (collusion could get you 4).    I guess there's a very small chance Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens could become HOF'ers this weekend.     Max chaos if it is one but not the other.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Just Regular

[Sports Guy]

Even this group can’t get things right.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Even this group can’t get things right.

Did anyone expect them to?

[Just Regular]

Reveal show had detail it was in-person meeting today (so Kim Ng couldn't be working on her Orioles trades).    Chipper had a travel-cancelling illness, and was replaced by some old Diamondbacks exec the current HOF president could get on short notice.

Congrats Crime Dog.    I either forgot or never knew the detail from Harold Reynolds after the announcement it was Kirby Puckett who bestowed the nickname on a Japan tour.

[Moose Milligan]

Distinctly remember having a debate with @DrungoHazewoodseveral years ago about McGriff’s candidacy. I wonder if he’s changed his tune. 

[emmett16]

They went back and forth on MLB network last Monday (was driving all day) and almost everyone agreed he should be in.  They also think Albert Belle has a legit resume and should/would be next.  I know McGriff doesn’t have the 70war but at 2490/493/1550(less than Baines), a 130OPS+ And a good bit of bold print even though he played in the thick of the Steroid era and at First Base no less.  Congrats Crime Dog! Well deserved IMHO. 

[forphase1]

Hey, I love the Hall of the Very Good!  McGriff, come on down!

[Frobby]

I hate the “sloppy seconds” edition of the HOF selection process.  In my opinion, at most these committees should meet every 10 or 20 years, and be allowed to choose 1-2 players to be belatedly admitted.   It would be fine with me if the process didn’t exist at all.  

I loved Harold Baines as an Oriole, but his inclusion in the Hall of Fame is an utter joke.  McGriff is a more defensible decision, but I still don’t like it.  
 

[Tony-OH]

Once Baines was added, the Hall has become the Hall of Very good. There are two ways to get into the HoF now. Be actually one of the best "non steroid" player, or be vey good over a long period of time. 

McGriff, like Baines, fits into the latter group. 

Lou Whitaker and Dick Allen need to be relooked as well with this criteria.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

4 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Once Baines was added, the Hall has become the Hall of Very good. There are two ways to get into the HoF now. Be actually one of the best "non steroid" player, or be vey good over a long period of time. 

McGriff, like Baines, fits into the latter group. 

Lou Whitaker and Dick Allen need to be relooked as well with this criteria.

I first read the news about Baines and Lee Smith being named to the HOF on the Orioles Talk section of OH.

My initial reaction was the Orioles added a couple players to the team HOF. After remembering Baines was already in the Orioles HOF (and Lee Smith only spent the 94 season with the O’s), I realized this was the Baseball HOF.

I wouldn’t mind very good players getting in if players who legit deserve to be in the HOF like Lou Whitaker and Bobby Grich were already recognized. 

[eddie83]

22 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

Distinctly remember having a debate with @DrungoHazewoodseveral years ago about McGriff’s candidacy. I wonder if he’s changed his tune. 

 

[DrungoHazewood]

On 12/4/2022 at 8:40 PM, Moose Milligan said:

Distinctly remember having a debate with @DrungoHazewoodseveral years ago about McGriff’s candidacy. I wonder if he’s changed his tune. 

I have no idea what I said before, but McGriff is solidly in the area between solid BBWAA first-few-years-on-the-ballot selections, and the weird Committee-of-the-Moment picks where 80-90% of comparables aren't in.

In other words, far better than Sunny Jim Bottomley, Highpockets Kelly, better than Frank Chance and Gil Hodges, just as good as Tony Perez and maybe even David Ortiz or Harmon Killebrew.  But also about on par with John Olerud, Will Clark, Norm Cash, Mark Teixeira, Carlos Delgado, Dolph Camilli and others.  No, he's not an average HOF 1B, but neither is Cepeda and I don't remember any rending of garments or self-immolation over his selection.

[DrungoHazewood]

20 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Once Baines was added, the Hall has become the Hall of Very good. There are two ways to get into the HoF now. Be actually one of the best "non steroid" player, or be vey good over a long period of time. 

McGriff, like Baines, fits into the latter group. 

Lou Whitaker and Dick Allen need to be relooked as well with this criteria.

Tony, you know that players who weren't even on Baines level have been going into the Hall since the 1940s. That's really why we don't have a solid argument for the line being much higher.  Once you start putting in the Rube Marquards and Tommy McCarthys in the very first decade of inductions it's impossible to close the floodgates.

High Pockets Kelly is a first baseman who went in the Hall 49 years ago and he was basically Lee May or Ryan Klesko.  McGriff was twice the player he was.  Baines is about halfway between Kelly and McGriff.

[Tony-OH]

Just now, DrungoHazewood said:

Tony, you know that players who weren't even on Baines level have been going into the Hall since the 1940s. That's really why we don't have a solid argument for the line being much higher.  Once you start putting in the Rube Marquards and Tommy McCarthys in the very first decade of inductions it's impossible to close the floodgates.

High Pockets Kelly is a first baseman who went in the Hall 49 years ago and he was basically Lee May or Ryan Klesko.  McGriff was twice the player he was.  Baines is about halfway between Kelly and McGriff.

I'm not sure the voters were very good in the earlier days. The writers went by reputation and generic stats like all-star game appearances, home runs, wins, strikeouts for pitchers, overall amount of hits and defensive reputation.

Sure, there are loads of players that were put in that don't belong there. Honestly, it doesn't hurt my feelings on whoever they put in there because most "Hall of Fames" and Walls/rings of honor have been watered down. 

Hell I went to Nationals Park last week for a Holiday lights thing with my granddaughter and family and Frank Robinson is on their ring of honor. He managed two years for them and had a losing record overall. How in the world did that happen? 

Either way, Baines was the equivalent of a very good hitter, but outside of a few seasons in his prime, I'm not sure anyone ever considered him one of the best players in the league, and even then it was probably by fans of his own team.

But Baines was a great guy by all accounts and stuck around a long time so he got the nod.

As for McGriff, he should have been in long before Baines since he was a better player overall. 

 

[Moose Milligan]

On 12/4/2022 at 10:24 PM, emmett16 said:

They went back and forth on MLB network last Monday (was driving all day) and almost everyone agreed he should be in.  They also think Albert Belle has a legit resume and should/would be next.  I know McGriff doesn’t have the 70war but at 2490/493/1550(less than Baines), a 130OPS+ And a good bit of bold print even though he played in the thick of the Steroid era and at First Base no less.  Congrats Crime Dog! Well deserved IMHO. 

I've always thought Belle deserved more of a chance that he got.  He was one of the preeminent sluggers of the era and a career that was cut short to a bum hip.  If we're talking steroids, he's never been mentioned in any rumors.

It's obvious as to why he fell off the ballot immediately, a bunch of writers wanted to extract revenge for the fact that Belle was a giant jerk.  It's why he didn't win the MVP that year and they gave it to Mo Vaughn instead.  Sportswriters, IMO, are an incredibly sensitive bunch.

 

On 12/4/2022 at 11:44 PM, forphase1 said:

Hey, I love the Hall of the Very Good!  McGriff, come on down!

 

On 12/5/2022 at 10:03 AM, Frobby said:

I hate the “sloppy seconds” edition of the HOF selection process.  In my opinion, at most these committees should meet every 10 or 20 years, and be allowed to choose 1-2 players to be belatedly admitted.   It would be fine with me if the process didn’t exist at all.  

I loved Harold Baines as an Oriole, but his inclusion in the Hall of Fame is an utter joke.  McGriff is a more defensible decision, but I still don’t like it.  
 

 

On 12/5/2022 at 12:37 PM, Tony-OH said:

Once Baines was added, the Hall has become the Hall of Very good. There are two ways to get into the HoF now. Be actually one of the best "non steroid" player, or be vey good over a long period of time. 

McGriff, like Baines, fits into the latter group. 

Lou Whitaker and Dick Allen need to be relooked as well with this criteria.

I used to be a "small Hall" guy but once guys like Baines were getting in, fine.  Open it up wide.  And, IMO, it's the Hall of FAME.  They should let guys like Fernando Valenzuela in, he did a lot for baseball in the early 80s.  Was someone for the latin community in LA.  Fernando-mania was a big deal and he had several good years after that.  He's been an ambassador and a credit to the game.  

I'll also say this about that; that if these sportswriters want to hold the PEDs against Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod and whatever, then they make a concerted effort to reward guys (like McGriff, Mattingly, Murphy) who were never ensnared PED controversy to begin with.  

The fact that McGriff had to wait this long after hitting 493 homers clean is the bigger joke.  If they want to be anti-PED and anti-jerk (hello, Curt Schilling) then they should be absolutely pro-clean players who maybe have some lesser stats and pro-nice guys (Murphy).  If they're trying to make a point, they should actually make it.

I believe McGriff also suffered from the fact that he was a quiet guy, he was consistent and doesn't have a "signature moment."  But like I said, if they're going to hold the fact that Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod and Schilling were jerks against them, then they should have no problem propping up quiet, unassuming, steady consistency.  

Anyway, I always thought McGriff was like Eddie Murray without the defense.  

5 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I have no idea what I said before, but McGriff is solidly in the area between solid BBWAA first-few-years-on-the-ballot selections, and the weird Committee-of-the-Moment picks where 80-90% of comparables aren't in.

In other words, far better than Sunny Jim Bottomley, Highpockets Kelly, better than Frank Chance and Gil Hodges, just as good as Tony Perez and maybe even David Ortiz or Harmon Killebrew.  But also about on par with John Olerud, Will Clark, Norm Cash, Mark Teixeira, Carlos Delgado, Dolph Camilli and others.  No, he's not an average HOF 1B, but neither is Cepeda and I don't remember any rending of garments or self-immolation over his selection.

You got really uppity about it, almost like you were offended.

But it's a good day when you get to mention Highpockets Kelly!  I was hoping for a reference to the Federal League (my favorite) but we can't always get what we want.