Is it possible that we (the Hangout fans) are just not patient enough??

[RZNJ]

12 minutes ago, DrinkinWithFermi said:

Regardless of how things ultimately shake out, I really hope we get some kind of info on who those alleged multiyear offers were for and how far off the final deal they were. 

What are the chances of that happening?   I don't think they are greater than zero.

[DrinkinWithFermi]

1 minute ago, RZNJ said:

What are the chances of that happening?   I don't think they are greater than zero.

Sure they are, stuff gets leaked by all the time.

I'm not necessarily expecting it, but I am certainly hoping for it. 

[RZNJ]

19 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I’ve said basically the same thing about a dozen times in the last two weeks.  But honestly, I understand why fans are extremely nervous.  About 2/3 or 3/4 of the FA pitchers who plausibly could be called upgrades are off the market, and there’s not even a rumor out there that the O’s are in on the remainders.   As to trades, it looks like in this market the cost (in terms of prospects) could be quite high, and that has its own downsides.   

In hindsight, I wish Elias had been less encouraging in his public statements about his offseason plans back in August, October and even at the start of the Winter Meetings.   I never took “liftoff” to mean we were going to increase payroll drastically, but I did take his “significant investment in the major-league payroll” comment seriously.   It still may happen, but as a fan, I would rather have gone into the offseason without any expectations and then been pleasantly surprised by whatever the O’s did, than be waiting on tenterhooks for that promise to be fulfilled, while watching the odds get worse by the day.
 

You and I both know that things happen when they happen.   You aren't likely to hear about Oriole moves beforehand.   Did we hear about Jorge Lopez before it happened?    Anyone who wants rumors that are actually going to lead to something is sure to be disappointed.   

 

[Bemorewins]

5 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

I know we all want the big splash (or splashes) in free agency.  I see the frustration from many of you, and I get it.  So, I wanted to do some research with regard to two very successful franchises right now, and how they built/acquired their core players and pitchers.  Their farm systems have served them well, and with very rare exceptions, they jump in for a key free agent.  Here's what I found:

2022 Astros - Core players based on at bats, and top 5 pitchers based on starts:

Farm System Guys - Gurriel, Altuve, Pena, Bregman, McCormick, Tucker 

Acquired via Trades - Maldonado and Diaz.....and then.......

Alvarez (the Beast) - acquired via trade from the Dodgers before anyone knew who he was, so I guess we'd call him a Farm guy, since he was acquired in 2016

Free Agent Signing - Michael Brantley - hurt most of the year, but the only notable position player the Astros went out and got in free agency, before Abreu this offseason

Pitchers - Verlander, acquired via trade, and then Valdez, Urquidy, Garcia, Javier and McCullers all farm system guys

 

2022 Atlanta Braves - Core players based on at-bats, and top 5 pitchers based on starts:

Farm System Guys - Albies, Riley, Swanson, Harris, Acuna and Contreras

Free Agent Signings - d'Arnaud (not a major splash), Ozuna (2020 offseason signing, one good year, and now the Braves can't even dump his contract), and Matt Olson (this was their splash)

Acquired via Trade - Adam Duval and Eddie Rosario, both at the trade deadline in 2021

Pitchers - Fried, Wright, Strider and Anderson were "Farm System" guys, and then Charlie Morton (their splash free agent pitcher)

 

Two very patient organizations that have invested in player development in order to build the core of their teams.  They don't seem to have gotten into major bidding wars to get their players.  Why can't this be us - now and in the future?  Isn't that the blueprint that Elias may be following?  Do we maybe have the next Fried, Strider, Wright and/or Anderson in our system and just don't know it yet?

Like everyone else here, I would like to see our ownership spend some money, even if it's for locking up Rutschman and Henderson to long term deals now to keep them here for the next 10 years, and then maybe GRod once we know he's the real deal.....like maybe next offseason.  Maybe then, with that type of investment in our core players, free agents might see this as a viable place to be, assuming we remain competitive with our farm and some enhancements.

Last point, let's face it - if you're a higher level free agent out there who wants to get to the playoffs, you have to see that the Orioles are just not investing in their team right now, so with other options to play for teams who appear to be investing to compete, wouldn't those destinations be more attractive than Baltimore right now?  It's kind of cool what the O's are becoming right now, but I'm not sure many free agents are clamoring to play for us.......YET.  Here's hoping this will change in the not too distant future.

But there is path to getting to the next level using the Astros and Braves blueprints, without signing free agents to insane contracts, and I like how our farm is being developed.

Is it possible that we're just not being patient enough with the process???

Hey I really appreciate your attempt to be optimistic. I really do because at this point my anger and agitation is starting to turn into apathy. 
 

I wish I could join you in optimism, but what would be reasonable odds that the O’s would be proactive and shell out the kind of money it would take to resign their own players? They have never done this to my knowledge and are actually showing signs of not being willing to add to payroll. And to be honest unless I saw something that suggest the org was committed to long term competitiveness, if I were Adley, Gunnar, or Grayson why would I want to spend the bulk of my career with an org who I have questions about their commitment to being true contenders?

I know we as fans are committed and loyal to the org, but at the end of the day, for them they are simply their employers.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Bemorewins

[Sanity Check]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

Also, there's a line between being "not patient" and being upset about how this offseason has gone.  The line can get a little blurry at times, but it looks like a lot of fans took that "liftoff" comment very seriously and are pissed.  Especially coming off the season that we had where we surprised a lot of people, took a quantum leap forward in the win column and can see the minor league system paying off...it felt like this was an offseason where we could pull up a chair to the adults table.

So yeah, I think it's easy to confuse "not patient" with being pissed.  

I'm going to go with "Impatient" for now.  The definition of "Pissed" will be the reaction when Odor is in the 2023 opening day lineup batting 8th.

[tntoriole]

5 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

I know we all want the big splash (or splashes) in free agency.  I see the frustration from many of you, and I get it.  So, I wanted to do some research with regard to two very successful franchises right now, and how they built/acquired their core players and pitchers.  Their farm systems have served them well, and with very rare exceptions, they jump in for a key free agent.  Here's what I found:

2022 Astros - Core players based on at bats, and top 5 pitchers based on starts:

Farm System Guys - Gurriel, Altuve, Pena, Bregman, McCormick, Tucker 

Acquired via Trades - Maldonado and Diaz.....and then.......

Alvarez (the Beast) - acquired via trade from the Dodgers before anyone knew who he was, so I guess we'd call him a Farm guy, since he was acquired in 2016

Free Agent Signing - Michael Brantley - hurt most of the year, but the only notable position player the Astros went out and got in free agency, before Abreu this offseason

Pitchers - Verlander, acquired via trade, and then Valdez, Urquidy, Garcia, Javier and McCullers all farm system guys

 

2022 Atlanta Braves - Core players based on at-bats, and top 5 pitchers based on starts:

Farm System Guys - Albies, Riley, Swanson, Harris, Acuna and Contreras

Free Agent Signings - d'Arnaud (not a major splash), Ozuna (2020 offseason signing, one good year, and now the Braves can't even dump his contract), and Matt Olson (this was their splash)

Acquired via Trade - Adam Duval and Eddie Rosario, both at the trade deadline in 2021

Pitchers - Fried, Wright, Strider and Anderson were "Farm System" guys, and then Charlie Morton (their splash free agent pitcher)

 

Two very patient organizations that have invested in player development in order to build the core of their teams.  They don't seem to have gotten into major bidding wars to get their players.  Why can't this be us - now and in the future?  Isn't that the blueprint that Elias may be following?  Do we maybe have the next Fried, Strider, Wright and/or Anderson in our system and just don't know it yet?

Like everyone else here, I would like to see our ownership spend some money, even if it's for locking up Rutschman and Henderson to long term deals now to keep them here for the next 10 years, and then maybe GRod once we know he's the real deal.....like maybe next offseason.  Maybe then, with that type of investment in our core players, free agents might see this as a viable place to be, assuming we remain competitive with our farm and some enhancements.

Last point, let's face it - if you're a higher level free agent out there who wants to get to the playoffs, you have to see that the Orioles are just not investing in their team right now, so with other options to play for teams who appear to be investing to compete, wouldn't those destinations be more attractive than Baltimore right now?  It's kind of cool what the O's are becoming right now, but I'm not sure many free agents are clamoring to play for us.......YET.  Here's hoping this will change in the not too distant future.

But there is path to getting to the next level using the Astros and Braves blueprints, without signing free agents to insane contracts, and I like how our farm is being developed.

Is it possible that we're just not being patient enough with the process???

Astros and Braves have not been trying to do it in the AL East.  Let’s see how a balanced schedule affects the CW. 

[tntoriole]

3 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

I'm going to go with "Impatient" for now.  The definition of "Pissed" will be the reaction when Odor is in the 2023 opening day lineup batting 8th.

Or they re-sign Lyles. 

[SteveA]

The problem is, there has been a narrative -- with facts to back it up -- that the organization has been very cheap in many ways for quite a while, both before and after Elias's hiring.   From the talk of coaches being let go for monetary reasons, to firing veteran scouts who make comparatively more money than data analyst interns, to trading away international bonus slots, to having one of the lowest player payrolls in the majors, to being one of the last teams to send our broadcasters back on the road after Covid... the list goes on and on.

Any single item on that list could have an explanation, for example, getting rid of scouts for data analysts for example is clearly part of the changes that Elias is making in the organization.   But when taken as a whole, it is hard to avoid at least considering the possibility that the budget is ridiculously tight.   Elias was certainly allowed to spend in some areas, such as the international market, and using up the majority of our draft allotments and beefing up analytics, and breaking ground on the facility in the DR.   But overall, things have been run very tightly.

For a few years, for the most part, that didn't matter to a lot of us.   We bought into the explanation that there wasn't much point spending 10s of millions on players who might improve us from a 60 to a 70 win team and who would not be around "when we were good" anyway.   Some people didn't buy that, but some of us including myself did.   But I ALWAYS had the concern in the back of the mind that when the time came where spending on payroll would make a difference, we wouldn't do it.   It was a nagging fear and I said it many times on this message board.   I was OK with not trying to eke a few more wins out of the 2019, 2020, 2021, and even 2022 teams and concentrating on solely building the foundation, as long as when the time came that eking a few  more wins would be the difference between the playoffs and not, we would do so.

Well, that time is clearly here.  Whether it is signing free agents, locking up guys long term, trading prospects for guys who are making arbitration money... we are clearly and unequivocally at a point where smart moves to improve the team would likely be ones that would increase payroll, beyond just paying our guys who go to arbitration.   So for those of us who have had the nagging fear for a long time that this organization wasn't going to spend even when it became necessary, they have done nothing yet to ease our concerns.  The offseason isn't over of course.    But this team has had a demonstrable pattern of pinching pennies for several years and now has done nothing in this critical offseason to do what needs to be done.   I don't think it's being impatient if you start to get concerned right around now.

 

[SteveA]

15 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

I'm going to go with "Impatient" for now.  The definition of "Pissed" will be the reaction when Odor is in the 2023 opening day lineup batting 8th.

All the way down at 8th?   His late inning heroics would help us more if he was in the heart of the order.

[Going Underground]

26 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

I'm going to go with "Impatient" for now.  The definition of "Pissed" will be the reaction when Odor is in the 2023 opening day lineup batting 8th.

That would stink to  holey hell or beyond 

[Finisher]

Impatience? We've literally never signed a true Ace under an Angelos.

[Sanity Check]

9 minutes ago, SteveA said:

The problem is, there has been a narrative -- with facts to back it up -- that the organization has been very cheap in many ways for quite a while, both before and after Elias's hiring.   From the talk of coaches being let go for monetary reasons, to firing veteran scouts who make comparatively more money than data analyst interns, to trading away international bonus slots, to having one of the lowest player payrolls in the majors, to being one of the last teams to send our broadcasters back on the road after Covid... the list goes on and on.

Any single item on that list could have an explanation, for example, getting rid of scouts for data analysts for example is clearly part of the changes that Elias is making in the organization.   But when taken as a whole, it is hard to avoid at least considering the possibility that the budget is ridiculously tight.   Elias was certainly allowed to spend in some areas, such as the international market, and using up the majority of our draft allotments and beefing up analytics, and breaking ground on the facility in the DR.   But overall, things have been run very tightly.

For a few years, for the most part, that didn't matter to a lot of us.   We bought into the explanation that there wasn't much point spending 10s of millions on players who might improve us from a 60 to a 70 win team and who would not be around "when we were good" anyway.   Some people didn't buy that, but some of us including myself did.   But I ALWAYS had the concern in the back of the mind that when the time came where spending on payroll would make a difference, we wouldn't do it.   It was a nagging fear and I said it many times on this message board.   I was OK with not trying to eke a few more wins out of the 2019, 2020, 2021, and even 2022 teams and concentrating on solely building the foundation, as long as when the time came that eking a few  more wins would be the difference between the playoffs and not, we would do so.

Well, that time is clearly here.  Whether it is signing free agents, locking up guys long term, trading prospects for guys who are making arbitration money... we are clearly and unequivocally at a point where smart moves to improve the team would likely be ones that would increase payroll, beyond just paying our guys who go to arbitration.   So for those of us who have had the nagging fear for a long time that this organization wasn't going to spend even when it became necessary, they have done nothing yet to ease our concerns.  The offseason isn't over of course.    But this team has had a demonstrable pattern of pinching pennies for several years and now has done nothing in this critical offseason to do what needs to be done.   I don't think it's being impatient if you start to get concerned right around now.

 

Great reply!!  Like I said in a later comment, even though the pickin's are getting slim - and yes, they still have time in this offseason - if they don't make some moves that improve the major league team this offseason other than Gibson and maybe Westburg replacing Odor at 2nd base (for example), then they're just not trying.

[Moose Milligan]

1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

Elias said they would be agressive in FA but he also said that he could see them do trades or FA or both.    I have no idea what he winds up doing or if I'll like it but it's way too early to pass judgement.   It's definitely an "incomplete" but people want to act like it's over.

There are plenty of trade chips between Urias, Mateo, and the prospects.    I'm curious to see what he does.   Others have already made up their minds.

I believe the FA portion of the off-season is largely over. Few players remain that we would be of interest and make a difference. Like I said earlier, you can say, “It’s December 13th!” all you want but it doesn’t change that a lot of players we could have used have found new homes and Kyle Gibson and Nomar Mazara and a Rule 5 guy are our only additions. 
 

Elias has shown to be aggressive in precisely only one area when it comes to transactions and that’s deadline deals. That’s the only time he’s been aggressive in player acquisitions when not related to scouting and drafting. 
 

We can quibble back and forth on whether or not he’s being held back by the Angelos clan in regards to spending and that’s fine. But he’s never been aggressive in free agency and he’s never been aggressive in offseason trades. I don’t expect that to change now. 
 

I’m just going off a track record of what I’ve observed. But if you want to keep saying the off-season “still ain’t over yet!” by all means, go ahead.  

[Going Underground]

2 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I believe the FA portion of the off-season is largely over. Few players remain that we would be of interest and make a difference. Like I said earlier, you can say, “It’s December 13th!” all you want but it doesn’t change that a lot of players we could have used have found new homes and Kyle Gibson and Nomar Mazara and a Rule 5 guy are our only additions. 
 

Elias has shown to be aggressive in precisely only one area when it comes to transactions and that’s deadline deals. That’s the only time he’s been aggressive in player acquisitions when not related to scouting and drafting. 
 

We can quibble back and forth on whether or not he’s being held back by the Angelos clan in regards to spending and that’s fine. But he’s never been aggressive in free agency and he’s never been aggressive in offseason trades. I don’t expect that to change now. 
 

I’m just going off a track record of what I’ve observed. But if you want to keep saying the off-season “still ain’t over yet!” by all means, go ahead.  

How can you forget Franchy? 

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I believe the FA portion of the off-season is largely over. Few players remain that we would be of interest and make a difference. Like I said earlier, you can say, “It’s December 13th!” all you want but it doesn’t change that a lot of players we could have used have found new homes and Kyle Gibson and Nomar Mazara and a Rule 5 guy are our only additions. 
 

Elias has shown to be aggressive in precisely only one area when it comes to transactions and that’s deadline deals. That’s the only time he’s been aggressive in player acquisitions when not related to scouting and drafting. 
 

We can quibble back and forth on whether or not he’s being held back by the Angelos clan in regards to spending and that’s fine. But he’s never been aggressive in free agency and he’s never been aggressive in offseason trades. I don’t expect that to change now. 
 

I’m just going off a track record of what I’ve observed. But if you want to keep saying the off-season “still ain’t over yet!” by all means, go ahead.  

Dude, you are wrong here.

He's also very aggressive when it comes to the waiver wire.