Kostka: Os need to follow a different path

[eddie83]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

Who said anything about that?

Are you feeling OK?

 

I feel fine. My point was Elias cared about the 40 man spot. 
 

You don’t call a player up the year prior just to get him on the 40. 
 

MLB incentivized calling players up earlier. Why didn’t Cleveland call up Kwan or Seattle call up JRod a year earlier? They were both put on the 40 in November. Both could have been on the team months prior. 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, eddie83 said:

Thank you.  

 

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

Did you read the “over the winter” part?

NO ONE was suggesting that.

Did you miss the part where I was talking about him getting experience?

The part where I mentioned his 2022 acclimation period happening in 2021?

You don't get any experience getting put on the 40 the day after the season ended.

He should have been promoted at the end part of the 2021 season to get acclimated to the majors.

How could anyone possibly think I was talking about anything else?

Just like Hays and Gunnar, and tons of other players.  Promote him late, let him get his feet wet and keep his rookie eligibility active.

 

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Adley should have been up here for half the 2021 season. He would have been further along in 2022 and his service time would have been the exact same.  

Or just short enough to save his rookie eligibility.

That would have been acceptable.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Can_of_corn

[eddie83]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

 

NO ONE was suggesting that.

Did you miss the part where I was talking about him getting experience?

The part where I mentioned his 2022 acclimation period happening in 2021?

You don't get any experience getting put on the 40 the day after the season ended.

He should have been promoted at the end part of the 2021 season to get acclimated to the majors.

How could anyone possibly think I was talking about anything else?

Just like Hays and Gunnar, and tons of other players.  Promote him late, let him get his feet wet and keep his rookie eligibility active.

 

I give up. 
 

We all know how you feel about service time manipulation. 
 

I read what you said. I’m pointing out there was no rush to call him up. 
 

This was a perfect storm scenario that happened. Get hurt, but still get up in time to make an impact. 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, eddie83 said:

I give up. 
 

We all know how you feel about service time manipulation. 
 

I read what you said. I’m pointing out there was no rush to call him up. 
 

This was a perfect storm scenario that happened. Get hurt, but still get up in time to make an impact. 

If you read what I said you would know that you were misrepresenting it with this asinine idea that I was suggesting the O's promote him AFTER the season for no reason than to burn a 40 man slot.

As opposed to the traditional strategy of promoting promising players late in the year to aid in their development.

[Frobby]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

 

NO ONE was suggesting that.

Did you miss the part where I was talking about him getting experience?

The part where I mentioned his 2022 acclimation period happening in 2021?

You don't get any experience getting put on the 40 the day after the season ended.

He should have been promoted at the end part of the 2021 season to get acclimated to the majors.

How could anyone possibly think I was talking about anything else?

Just like Hays and Gunnar, and tons of other players.  Promote him late, let him get his feet wet and keep his rookie eligibility active.

 

I didn’t miss anything.   I was just reading your response to his post saying nobody adds guys to the 40-man roster over the winter unless they have to.   

The points you make about the experiential value of adding a player late in the season are valid enough.   If Elias had realized the O’s would be a borderline contending team in 2022, he might have thought it worthwhile to have Adley spend a little time in the majors in 2021.   The calculus was a little different at the time.  
 

[eddie83]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

If you read what I said you would know that you were misrepresenting it with this asinine idea that I was suggesting the O's promote him AFTER the season for no reason than to burn a 40 man slot.

As opposed to the traditional strategy of promoting promising players late in the year to aid in their development.

I read what you said. I already answered you. You think it was to keep the option open off service time manipulation. 
 

I didn’t misrepresent anything. I said the 40 man spot mattered. Did Adley suffer this year because he wasn’t up in late 2021? I wasn’t suggesting you promoted a winter call up. I just said the reason he wasn’t up in 21. Once he wasn’t that didn’t mean they intended to screw him over. Adley didn’t need to be up in 21.  
 

I was pointing up the obvious which was he had no idea he would get hurt prior to the year. He wanted the spot open. 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, eddie83 said:

I read what you said. I already answered you. You think it was to keep the option open off service time manipulation. 
 

I didn’t misrepresent anything. I said the 40 man spot mattered. Did Adley suffer this year because he wasn’t up in late 2021? I wasn’t suggesting you promoted a winter call up. I just said the reason he wasn’t up in 21. Once he wasn’t that didn’t mean they intended to screw him over. Adley didn’t need to be up in 21.  
 

I was pointing up the obvious which was he had no idea he would get hurt prior to the year. He wanted the spot open. 

You said NO TEAM does it when the O's just did it with Gunnar.

Teams do it routinely.

Want another name?  How about Mike Trout?  Angels did it with him.

He got called up in 2011, struggled, was RoY in 2012.

I guess they weren't that worried about a 19 year old using up a slot on the 40.

[Aristotelian]

17 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Adley should have been up here for half the 2021 season. He would have been further along in 2022 and his service time would have been the exact same.  

Except we had no way of predicting that at the time. (Of course, with no CBA in place, you could argue that we had no way of predicting that the CBA would stay the same. Even so, you could then counter that the conservative thing would be to not burn service time unnecessarily in a losing season). 

With under 200 ABs in AAA I don't think it is a slam dunk that he should have been promoted much earlier. Waiting to see what happened with the CBA was the prudent thing to do.

 If he hadn't gotten injured, it would have been a really interesting call to go for ROY vs wait. I would have supported either decision.

No doubt, Elias gambled and lost but 100/100 times I would not have brought him up for 10-20 meaningless ABs in 2021 when you have the upside of extra year through RoY or manipulation.

 

 

 

 

[eddie83]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

You said NO TEAM does it when the O's just did it with Gunnar.

Teams do it routinely.

Want another name?  How about Mike Trout?  Angels did it with him.

He got called up in 2011, struggled, was RoY in 2012.

I guess they weren't that worried about a 19 year old using up a slot on the 40.

Gunnar was called up to a contender. You know damn well if the Orioles were 10 games under .500 that doesn’t happen. Same thing with Manny in 2012. They came up because there was a need on a contender. 
 

I’m not here to argue what the rules should or shouldn’t be. Trout, the greatest player of this generation was called up to a contender. 

[Sports Guy]

16 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Except we had no way of predicting that at the time. (Of course, with no CBA in place, you could argue that we had no way of predicting that the CBA would stay the same. Even so, you could then counter that the conservative thing would be to not burn service time unnecessarily in a losing season). 

With under 200 ABs in AAA I don't think it is a slam dunk that he should have been promoted much earlier. Waiting to see what happened with the CBA was the prudent thing to do.

 If he hadn't gotten injured, it would have been a really interesting call to go for ROY vs wait. I would have supported either decision.

No doubt, Elias gambled and lost but 100/100 times I would not have brought him up for 10-20 meaningless ABs in 2021 when you have the upside of extra year through RoY or manipulation.

 

 

 

 

He was unquestionably ready. I don’t care if we knew it or not. They kept him down simply to manipulate his service time and only after the rule change were they going to put him on the OD roster.

The goal for 2022 should have been to be very good.  Elias didn’t want to plan for that.  As it turned out, they were and maybe they find a few more wins if Adley was more ready. 

[Aristotelian]

8 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

He was unquestionably ready. I don’t care if we knew it or not. They kept him down simply to manipulate his service time and only after the rule change were they going to put him on the OD roster.

The goal for 2022 should have been to be very good.  Elias didn’t want to plan for that.  As it turned out, they were and maybe they find a few more wins if Adley was more ready. 

Elias would have been crazy to call him up in 2021 and potentially lose a year of service time. Call that manipulation, it absolutely would have been the right decision had it worked out. The fact that it didn't work out does not make it the wrong decision. 

I don't see how playing him for a couple games in 2021 would have led to more wins in '22. Plenty of players hit right away, plenty take months or years to adjust. None of that is predictable enough to justify giving up a year of service time worth potentially $30M+. 

[eddie83]

11 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Elias would have been crazy to call him up in 2021 and potentially lose a year of service time. Call that manipulation, it absolutely would have been the right decision had it worked out. The fact that it didn't work out does not make it the wrong decision. 

I don't see how playing him for a couple games in 2021 would have led to more wins in '22. Plenty of players hit right away, plenty take months or years to adjust. None of that is predictable enough to justify giving up a year of service time worth potentially $30M+. 

Plus with the CBA you mentioned you had the risk of no baseball or a shorter season. All the more reason not to call him up.  

[Sports Guy]

1 hour ago, Aristotelian said:

Elias would have been crazy to call him up in 2021 and potentially lose a year of service time. Call that manipulation, it absolutely would have been the right decision had it worked out. The fact that it didn't work out does not make it the wrong decision. 

I don't see how playing him for a couple games in 2021 would have led to more wins in '22. Plenty of players hit right away, plenty take months or years to adjust. None of that is predictable enough to justify giving up a year of service time worth potentially $30M+. 

He wouldn’t have lost any service time unless he waited until late April of 2023 to bring him up.

And it wasn’t a couple of games.  It was half the season.

[Aristotelian]

42 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

He wouldn’t have lost any service time unless he waited until late April of 2023 to bring him up.

And it wasn’t a couple of games.  It was half the season.

He had less than 200 AB in AAA. There was no way he was coming up earlier than September.

We don't know what Elias would have done had Adley been healthy in April. He could have gone for ROY and the service time, we just don't know. I do think he would have started Adley whenever he thought he had the best chance of getting the extra year. Either way, worth a shot when the upside is an extra 5 WAR season and the downside is...nothing.