Maybe Frazier can play

[Tony-OH]

4 minutes ago, Explosivo said:

Think of it this way, we know Westburg is terrific and will likely assume duties at 2B this year. What we do not know is how quickly it will take him to start doing well. Say you hand him the job and he doesn't fair well for 1/3 of the season, you could potentially lose out on winning games during that time either by defensive mistakes or simply not hitting with runners on, who knows. All the Frazier move does is give us stability and options to play the hot hand. It's a long season and there are few positions that will field the same faces throughout its course. The ability to play guys when hot and not when cold and the flexibility to do so will yield us the most wins at the end of the year. I really think we are going to be returning to our roots with Earl Weaver and his approach to the game. We now have the options needed to succeed in that gameplan.

But you don't make your second highest paid player that role. If you signed Frazier to a $2 million contract knowing he will ultimately be a utility guy, ok, but they already have Vavra to fill that role for major league minimum. 

They have every intention of giving Frazier Odor-like playing time at 2B. 

Now Westburg may very well need an adjustment time as he's needed at almost every level, but at some point that needs to happen. 

But we've rehashed this part to death. At the end of he day, Elias felt he needed a left-handed hitting second baseman and Frazier was the guy Sig's system spit it to get. 

Now we'll see if they were right. 

[Explosivo]

3 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

But you don't make your second highest paid player that role. If you signed Frazier to a $2 million contract knowing he will ultimately be a utility guy, ok, but they already have Vavra to fill that role for major league minimum. 

They have every intention of giving Frazier Odor-like playing time at 2B. 

Now Westburg may very well need an adjustment time as he's needed at almost every level, but at some point that needs to happen. 

But we've rehashed this part to death. At the end of he day, Elias felt he needed a left-handed hitting second baseman and Frazier was the guy Sig's system spit it to get. 

Now we'll see if they were right. 

Vavra is in the same boat as Westburg though. The bat is there, but can they trust the glove? Defense at second is more vital this year than years past. I think Elias is hedging his bets here to go with the sure thing in Frazier's glove in hope that Westburg and Vavra can continue their development. The thing not focused on is in my opinion the thing most vital to Elias making the decision to acquire Frazier and its the lack of shift and the greater importance of defense up the middle. Frazier has proven that he can at least do that. Will the bat regress? Was last year's offensive production what we can expect this year? No idea, but his experienced defense is something we can rely on. Westburg and Vavra, by most accounts, still need to iron that out.

[Too Tall]

Frazier (IMO) > than Odor. He probably already exceeds Odor in print and spring training is two weeks away. Frazier makes 7+ mil more than Odor so he better be better. I understand the angst, but I hope he rocks! Otherwise, this O H FRAZIER FETISH may well reach Chris Davis levels. Thirteen days and counting!

---

[Frobby]

35 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

That's assuming it's a competition.  Frazier is getting 8M.  The O's don't have a history of paying guys 8M to compete for job.

If Frazier performs as expected what does Westburg have to do to take the job away from him?

 

One thing about Frazier, he’s been a durable player.  The last 4 years, he’s played 521 of a possible 546 games (95.4%), 7th most in MLB.   I definitely think he was acquired to be an everyday player.   In fact, the biggest advantage he has over Urias is that the latter has landed on the DL or otherwise been unavailable for significant chunks of time.  

[emmett16]

5 minutes ago, Frobby said:

One thing about Frazier, he’s been a durable player.  The last 4 years, he’s played 521 of a possible 546 games (95.4%), 7th most in MLB.   I definitely think he was acquired to be an everyday player.   In fact, the biggest advantage he has over Urias is that the latter has landed on the DL or otherwise been unavailable for significant chunks of time.  

Vavra has been banged up over his career.  44 games in 2018, 102 2019, 48 2021, & 90 2022.  Believe it's been lower back strains and hamstring issues.  

[turtlebowl]

41 minutes ago, Explosivo said:

Think of it this way, we know Westburg is terrific and will likely assume duties at 2B this year. What we do not know is how quickly it will take him to start doing well. Say you hand him the job and he doesn't fair well for 1/3 of the season, you could potentially lose out on winning games during that time either by defensive mistakes or simply not hitting with runners on, who knows. All the Frazier move does is give us stability and options to play the hot hand. It's a long season and there are few positions that will field the same faces throughout its course. The ability to play guys when hot and not when cold and the flexibility to do so will yield us the most wins at the end of the year. I really think we are going to be returning to our roots with Earl Weaver and his approach to the game. We now have the options needed to succeed in that gameplan.

But don't the O's have other options on their 40 man with Urius and Vavra for 2nd?  

My assumption all along with the signing was it was a safety net for potential upcoming trades.  Maybe in the big picture Westburg is the odd man out in the O's infield.  We have Ortiz knocking on the door, Norby looks like a great hitting prospect.  We have Gunner likely at 3rd long term and Holliday hopefully ready in a couple of years.  So if some trade scenario is offered that included Westburg, Elias is not in a position now where he would be worried about making a deal because of lack of depth.  If Westburg is traded he should have quality backup scenarios for 3rd, 2nd and short that wouldn't require rushing a prospect or effect the teams ability to compete.

Just my take on the signing.

 

[Sports Guy]

46 minutes ago, Explosivo said:

Vavra is in the same boat as Westburg though. The bat is there, but can they trust the glove? Defense at second is more vital this year than years past. I think Elias is hedging his bets here to go with the sure thing in Frazier's glove in hope that Westburg and Vavra can continue their development. The thing not focused on is in my opinion the thing most vital to Elias making the decision to acquire Frazier and its the lack of shift and the greater importance of defense up the middle. Frazier has proven that he can at least do that. Will the bat regress? Was last year's offensive production what we can expect this year? No idea, but his experienced defense is something we can rely on. Westburg and Vavra, by most accounts, still need to iron that out.

Westburg and Vavra shouldn’t be mentioned in the same sentence.

[BRobinsonfan]

10 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Westburg and Vavra shouldn’t be mentioned in the same sentence.

I see what you did there.  

[Sports Guy]

5 minutes ago, BRobinsonfan said:

I see what you did there.  

Touché 

[RZNJ]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

But you don't make your second highest paid player that role. If you signed Frazier to a $2 million contract knowing he will ultimately be a utility guy, ok, but they already have Vavra to fill that role for major league minimum. 

They have every intention of giving Frazier Odor-like playing time at 2B. 

Now Westburg may very well need an adjustment time as he's needed at almost every level, but at some point that needs to happen. 

But we've rehashed this part to death. At the end of he day, Elias felt he needed a left-handed hitting second baseman and Frazier was the guy Sig's system spit it to get. 

Now we'll see if they were right. 

Are you 100% sure every decision has to go through Sig's system and approved by Sig's system to get done?     I don't.   I doubt this one was suggested by Sig's computer crew.    

[waroriole]

1 hour ago, Explosivo said:

Vavra is in the same boat as Westburg though. The bat is there, but can they trust the glove? Defense at second is more vital this year than years past. I think Elias is hedging his bets here to go with the sure thing in Frazier's glove in hope that Westburg and Vavra can continue their development. The thing not focused on is in my opinion the thing most vital to Elias making the decision to acquire Frazier and its the lack of shift and the greater importance of defense up the middle. Frazier has proven that he can at least do that. Will the bat regress? Was last year's offensive production what we can expect this year? No idea, but his experienced defense is something we can rely on. Westburg and Vavra, by most accounts, still need to iron that out.

Vavra and Westburg are not in the same boat. Not even the same type of boat. Vavra has no ability to play the IF and no power. His OBP skills will crash once pitchers know they can throw him strikes. Westburg has hit for power, with a good eye, and solid IF defense (including SS) at every minor league stop. 

[Ripken]

2 hours ago, Explosivo said:

That's not really it though. This is deeper that I frankly don't understand. 

Seriously?  Everyone hates the ownership with its constant arrogance and embarrassing instability, fans are beyond tired of losing, people are upset with not adding impact players, and we all really want to see the major prospects play.  So, the big news this offseason was to give (for us) semi-major money to a player who has a solid chance of actually making the team worse by sucking while blocking better, younger and cheaper players.  Nothing about that inspires confidence but it does concern many here that it signals an inability to take the next step forward with this franchise.

[btdart20]

1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

Are you 100% sure every decision has to go through Sig's system and approved by Sig's system to get done?     I don't.   I doubt this one was suggested by Sig's computer crew.    

I do.  Maybe not the LHH part (but maybe). 

And then they focused on OBP as a key metric to improve specifically for Odor's roster spot. 

The 1-year deal was the priority.  Who takes it?  Likely a bounce-back candidate.

And the rest was vetting through the options (likely a 2B) and making sure everything else fits (or at least doesn't torpedo things).  Then they were bold to get him. 

Kind of like Lyles and his IP last year.

[btdart20]

Just now, btdart20 said:

I do.  Maybe not the LHH part (but maybe). 

And then they focused on OBP as a key metric to improve specifically for Odor's roster spot. 

The 1-year deal was the priority.  Who takes it?  Likely a bounce-back candidate.

And the rest was vetting through the options (likely a 2B) and making sure everything else fits (or at least doesn't torpedo things).  Then they were bold to get him. 

Kind of like Lyles and his IP last year.

To clarify, not every decision.  But I do think the bold signings are heavily influenced by the models.

[RZNJ]

2 minutes ago, btdart20 said:

I do.  Maybe not the LHH part (but maybe). 

And then they focused on OBP as a key metric to improve specifically for Odor's roster spot. 

The 1-year deal was the priority.  Who takes it?  Likely a bounce-back candidate.

And the rest was vetting through the options (likely a 2B) and making sure everything else fits (or at least doesn't torpedo things).  Then they were bold to get him. 

Kind of like Lyles and his IP last year.

I think they think he's a good bounce-back candidate.   I don't think there is a computer algorithm that dictated this move.