BRob potential deals to the Cubs

[Sports Guy]

And again Crawdad...Who is giving us a top 7 prospect and another solid prospect for BRob? What team and what players?

I am with you..If that can happen by all means, do that and go get Cedeno and Pie another way.

That's fine with me....But I think you are overrating BRob's trade value right now and I think you are grossly underestimating the market.

I was with you on his trade value earlier in the offseason but with the way the economy is and how it is effecting the market, I don't think it is much more than the Miggy deal and these 4 Cubs players would represent a similar return.

[crawdad]

I believe that is Pie and Cedeno.

Pie can play left field everyday and improve our defense.

Scott and eventually Reimold can play DH.

Cedeno is a middle infielder two positions where we need help so not sure how he plays a position where we do not need help.

Again, Pie . . . redundant. If we cannot find value for the infield then we can revisit Pie, but I think we waste Roberts by dealing for him. We have an outfield. It makes little sense to hoard OFs if we can get needs for other positions.

I do not know of a single person who believed Cedeno has breakout potential last year and certainly no one of note thinks so this year. His bat does not play. He is not a good SS. He is a good defensive 2B, but the bat is underwhelming there. He is a utility guy unless something remarkable happens. We have utility guys. Several. We do not need that position.

[cindyluvsbrady]

I could give a rat's patootie about his 55 games in Iowa...Never once have I even mentioned that so the idea that you are bringing it up is pretty absurd.

You have already said that Pie could be a league average LFer...I agree with that...You have also said he has upside to break out...I also agree with that.

Those are the reasons I want Pie on the team.

As I said before...The best deal on the table, assuming it is better than 2 draft picks, is a deal I make. Save the salary and put it towards the draft, Int'l scouting, etc....and get 4 ML ready players who can step in and contribute.

Maybe they bust, maybe they end up very good...Either way, it is better than 2 picks and it is much better than extending him to a foolish contract.

it would be a WISE contract:):wedge::clap3: not foolish!!!!!!!!:rolleyestf:

Thinking about trades 24/7 is not good:rolleyestf:

[crawdad]

And again Crawdad...Who is giving us a top 7 prospect and another solid prospect for BRob? What team and what players?

I am with you..If that can happen by all means, do that and go get Cedeno and Pie another way.

That's fine with me....But I think you are overrating BRob's trade value right now and I think you are grossly underestimating the market.

I was with you on his trade value earlier in the offseason but with the way the economy is and how it is effecting the market, I don't think it is much more than the Miggy deal and these 4 Cubs players would represent a similar return.

Again, Sports Guy.

Your trade would be a couple top 7 prospects if they had few enough at bats to qualify. Not sure how you are going at me for suggesting what I suggest.

You keep saying I overvalue Roberts when I am bloody valuing him the EXACT SAME as you are. My point is that we do not want redundancy and filler.

[cindyluvsbrady]

No we don't.

We already have a starting LFer and starting 2Bman, both of whom have proved way more than any of those guys.

These two are a maybe-2B-man and a maybe-LFer who can't hit like a real one.

As for the extra BP guy and the 29-yr-old P who lost the ability to throw strikes, well, color me not impressed.

We're looking good in the BP, and I've seen plenty of P's who can't throw strikes for mysterious reasons. I don't need to see more.

IMO, this just more of the annual spiel about how "We absolutely *must* jump on this bargain or else the O's are idiots!".

What usually happens is that the can't miss bargains turn out to be nobodies.

I was convinced Cedeno was worth a flyer last winter, and I deferred to others who claimed that Pie was just like AJ.

After last year, well, yawn. They'd both be interesting to take a chance on for spare change, or as the minor parts in a trade for an Actual Ballplayer.

But for BRob? No way. It's like a grab bag full of candy that nobody else seems to want very much.

Great post!:clap3:

[hatepaste]

Show me a starting pitcher in the middle of his career who lost his control completely without being injured . . . and then came back and pitched a 100era+. Name one.

Randy Johnson, Andy Pettite...I dunno. I guess it kind of depends on your definition of "lost control completely".

And I guess it kind of depends on your point. Rich HIll threw, what, 70 innings this year? So you might be right. Maybe it just proves he is injured and that's the reason for the loss of control.

[TonySoprano]

Boggles my mind that guys don't want us to go after Pie because we have Luke Scott.

That pretty much sums up why we have been a sucky, pathetic organization the past decade.

It boggles my mind why we'd go after Pie and his 57 OPS+. The Cubs have used him primarily as a centerfielder and some here want to put him in left. I still laugh when I think back on the people who wanted us to extend Corey Patterson's contract and Pie could end up like him. But, I guess some here know better than Lou Piniella who elected to go after a 38 year-old Jim Edmonds instead. Again, I'll take quality over quantity.

[crawdad]

Randy Johnson, Andy Pettite...I dunno. I guess it kind of depends on your definition of "lost control completely".

And I guess it kind of depends on your point. Rich HIll threw, what, 70 innings this year? So you might be right. Maybe it just proves he is injured and that's the reason for the loss of control.

Randy Johnson never had control, then he gained it. That is different.

Andy Pettite also went from average/poor control to very good control. He did not experience a one year collapse.

Rich Hill spent a lot of time with instructional coaches. I am not aware of a release saying he was injured. Keith Law has mentioned that he thinks Rich Hill will not rebound.

[Sports Guy]

Again, Sports Guy.

Your trade would be a couple top 7 prospects if they had few enough at bats to qualify. Not sure how you are going at me for suggesting what I suggest.

You keep saying I overvalue Roberts when I am bloody valuing him the EXACT SAME as you are. My point is that we do not want redundancy and filler.

The difference is the options and the need for the Cubs to deal them..PLus, the idea that the Cubs don't have a need for these players because of the position they are in.

[SHAWN555]

No we don't.

We already have a starting LFer and starting 2Bman, both of whom have proved way more than any of those guys.

These two are a maybe-2B-man, and a maybe-LFer who can't hit like a real one.

As for the extra BP guy and the 29-yr-old P who lost the ability to throw strikes, well, color me not impressed.

We're looking good in the BP, and I've seen plenty of P's who can't throw strikes for mysterious reasons. I don't need to see more.

IMO, this just more of the annual spiel about how "We absolutely *must* jump on this bargain or else the O's are idiots!".

What usually happens is that the can't miss bargains turn out to be nobodies.

I was convinced Cedeno was worth a flyer last winter, and I deferred to others who claimed that Pie was just like AJ if not better.

After last year, well, yawn. They'd both be interesting to take a chance on for spare change, or as the minor parts in a trade for an Actual Ballplayer.

But for BRob? No way. It's like a grab bag full of candy that nobody else seems to want very much.

This makes no sense to me.

Brob is more than likely gone after this season so we can either make a trade were we get young talent to provide depth or we wait and get two draft picks.

I would rather take the ready to go young talent than the longshot of two draft picks working out for us.

Having Scott is no reason for us not to try and get Pie. Scott can slide to DH and Pie can improve our outfield defense.

We are a team in a rebuild mode, the perfect team to take Hill Cedeno and Pie and let them play everyday ( hill every five) and see what happens.

And also we have a second baseman for this season no longer, how about looking at the big picture here and trying to build for the future not just this season.

[jets4ever]

Anyone else tired of talking about Roberts to the Cubs?

Probably Cindy.

[cindyluvsbrady]

Probably Cindy.

Tierd is not the right word:rolleyestf:

try STRESSED to the point of death!

[crawdad]

OK, let's review my position because it appears some folks find it confusing.

1. The Cubs are not in the market for Brian Roberts. He is not a significant upgrade over what they current have. It will only make sense if they are able to shed some salary and trade pieces they will not use this year in a playoff run.

2. The Cubs are an organizational that is incredibly thin on minor league talent and are unlikely to deal their top prospect Vitters to us.

3. Pie has been unfairly treated by the Cubs and deserves to start somewhere. He potentially could play average LF and would be an average to above average CF. That is valuable. Unfortunately for us, it is a redundancy. We could certainly use a guy like Pie, but if Pie is able to be gotten for Brian Roberts than a comparable prospect at a position of need is probably available and that is who we should target.

4. Ronny Cedeno is not considered a prospect any more and is a utility guy. I very much doubt his bat will ever develop and even if it does . . . he will be a second baseman.

5. Wuertz is a fine pitcher, but we already have enough bullpen help and will certainly have an abundance of bullpen arms in the next three years.

Hope this helps.

[Sports Guy]

Last year, Mark Ellis had an OPS of under 700 and his OPS+ was 90.

Now, as I showed, Tom Tango says if you play GG caliber defense and have an OPS+ of 68 at second base, you are league average.

I do not think Cedeno is GG caliber but I do think he is above average. So, what does that mean his OPS needs to be at to be a league average player?

CHONE projects Cedeno to have a 744 OPS next year..Bill James is at 717 and MARCEL is at 687...Let's throw CHONE out the windown and take the average of the other 2..That is a 702 OPS...If he can do that and play above average defense, I would guess that he would either be league average or close to league average.

Cedeno is no world beater and really, I agree with Crawdad that he is likely to be a UTI guy BUT I think it is also important to acknowledge that on a bad team, giving a player like him 500 at bats makes a lot of sense and hey, maybe we end up with a cheap second baseman for the next 3-4 years while we wait on a guy like Hoes or someone like that.

[SHAWN555]

OK, let's review my position because it appears some folks find it confusing.

1. The Cubs are not in the market for Brian Roberts. He is not a significant upgrade over what they current have. It will only make sense if they are able to shed some salary and trade pieces they will not use this year in a playoff run.

2. The Cubs are an organizational that is incredibly thin on minor league talent and are unlikely to deal their top prospect Vitters to us.

3. Pie has been unfairly treated by the Cubs and deserves to start somewhere. He potentially could play average LF and would be an average to above average CF. That is valuable. Unfortunately for us, it is a redundancy. We could certainly use a guy like Pie, but if Pie is able to be gotten for Brian Roberts than a comparable prospect at a position of need is probably available and that is who we should target.

4. Ronny Cedeno is not considered a prospect any more and is a utility guy. I very much doubt his bat will ever develop and even if it does . . . he will be a second baseman.

5. Wuertz is a fine pitcher, but we already have enough bullpen help and will certainly have an abundance of bullpen arms in the next three years.

Hope this helps.

How do you know the Cubs have no interest in Roberts?

This redundacy thing makes no sense. We have several holes granted but that doesnt mean you can't get Pie and slide Scott to DH. Where is the redundacy there?

Reimold is still more than likely one season away from being up here, and by then maybe Scott shines playing everyday as a DH and we can move him by deadline.

If Cedeno pans out as a second baseman thats just fine because we do not have any second basemans.

And you say we will have abundance of bullpen arms in three years, thats fine if it happens. Wuertz would allow us to consider moving Sherrill towards the deadline to fill a hole or two.

Its rare to be able to trade your players for exactly the prospects you need. There is nothing wrong with adding several young players that free you up to deal from an area of redundancy or depth whatever you want to call it to fill those holes.