The 2023 attendance thread

[FlipTheBird]

53 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

No disputing that football is more popular, but baseball has drawn very well in other cities w/ a quality product like New York, Boston, Atlanta, LA, and St. Louis.  A consistent winner is required and doing things first class to welcome fans and not drive them away.  The way the Angelos family has tried to do everything cheaply and been dismissive of fans has been a factor on decreasing attendance.  Maybe not as much as 14 years of losing but definitely a strong factor.  I think the days of regular sellouts are gone d/t proximity of Nationals, but I don't see any reason the O's can't average 30k+/game going forward.  There should be plenty of money to support a mid market payroll.  Baseball is a distant 3rd behind basketball and football in marketing its' stars.  Players like Adley and Gunnar w/ their electric personalities are a goldmine to a franchise.  O's have done very little to take advantage of that. 

The first four cities on your list dwarf Baltimore in terms of population and market size. St. Louis admittedly has clung to baseball very closely, which is due in part to their incredible history of success but also, I think, to the fact that they at best were only ever borrowing the Rams.

There are no shortage of gripes that can be dumped on the Angelos family, but there were periods where they spent, too. Just not always wisely.

The Baltimore Orioles are second fiddle to the Baltimore Ravens and that was happening no matter what.

[Spakman]

6 hours ago, FlipTheBird said:

Americans have favored the NFL over MLB for decades now.

I’ve said it before, and this is not a slight against the Ravens at all, as it’s of course not remotely their fault or their problem, but a football team returning the Baltimore was the worst thing that could have ever happened to the Orioles. Far worse than the arrival of the Nationals. The Ravens coming to town made the Orioles a second-class sporting event.

Yes, the franchise compounded that problem with a lot of losing not very long after football’s return, but it was an inevitable shift either way. Football is just that much more popular.

Silly comment. It’s the Nationals that has most effected  attendance and of course the poor teams

[Going Underground]

To get to 2,000,000 ,the Orioles would have to average 30,000 or so a game for the last 24 games That is not going to happen  No Yankee or Met fans coming down on a weekend series and averaging 20% or more of the tickets sold. See what happens with the Astro weekday series. Looks like 80,000 or so. A few weekend series left.  Rockies do have two giveaways. Rays and Red Sox the last two weekends. Cardinals have fans but weekday games in September for a team way out of the race. Nationals two games might have a few fans.1,8000,009 is doable and a big increase from 2022 when they drew 1,368,367 in 78 games.

[scottbbfm]

7 hours ago, Spakman said:

Silly comment. It’s the Nationals that has most effected  attendance and of course the poor teams

I think the Nats have effected the premium spend more than anything. Not necessarily straight attendance. DC based firms who used to get Orioles tix switched to the Nats.  
 

Also the area around OPACY has significantly deteriorated.  Harbor area is awful.  Very few options to get food before or after the game without a 20 minute walk. Even the Hilton’s diamond tavern is closed.  Yeah the pickles area is going strong but that doesn’t appeal to everyone.  Hopefully Angelos has this in mind as part of the new lease.  Remember he really likes what the braves have done.  

[Frobby]

33 minutes ago, Going Underground said:

To get to 2,000,000 ,the Orioles would have to average 30,000 or so a game for the last 24 games That is not going to happen  No Yankee or Met fans coming down on a weekend series and averaging 20% or more of the tickets sold. See what happens with the Astro weekday series. Looks like 80,000 or so. A few weekend series left.  Rockies do have two giveaways. Rays and Red Sox the last two weekends. Cardinals have fans but weekday games in September for a team way out of the race. Nationals two games might have a few fans.1,8000,009 is doable and a big increase from 2022 when they drew 1,368,367 in 78 games.

This is what’s reasonable to expect, and would be a very good result.  Rome wasn’t built in a day.  It took a long time and a lot of negative events to drive attendance as low as it was, and it’s going to take several years to build back up.  The increase from 2011 to 2012 was about 350 k and 20%.   An increase to 1.8 mm now would be 430 k and 31%.   Assuming they make the playoffs, priority will be given to this year’s season ticket holders and then people who commit to season tickets for next year, and that will help to drive another healthy increase for next year.  Bottom line, if the team becomes a consistent winner like we’re all hoping, attendance will keep growing.  

[TWpj]

Not sure if this is the most appropriate thread or not, but does anyone have any guidance on how to snag the $10 bleacher seats? My wife actually expressed an interest in driving down from PA on Wednesday but I can't seem to select them on the team site. I assume that means there are none left. 

[DrungoHazewood]

There's been a team in Baltimore called the Orioles every year since 1882, with the exception of 1900 and 1915. The first year they ever drew 2,000,000 fans was 1983.

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

There's been a team in Baltimore called the Orioles every year since 1882, with the exception of 1900 and 1915. The first year they ever drew 2,000,000 fans was 1983.

It's pretty amazing how poorly those dynasty Oriole teams drew.

[DrungoHazewood]

27 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

It's pretty amazing how poorly those dynasty Oriole teams drew.

The '66 Champs drew fewer fans than the 2022 or 2019 Orioles. The '69-71 Orioles went to the Series three straight years, the '72-74 Orioles drew under 1M fans three straight years. 

Some of this was the era, attendance was lower back then. But the '73 Orioles won 97 games and the division, but averaged 11,835 fans a game (9th in a 12-team league) after the Senators moved to Texas. They had a little more than half the attendance of the 85-77 Tigers.

If anyone starts feeling badly for the owners of that time, remember that the minimum player salary appears to have been something like $17,000. And the O's entire payroll for 1973 looks like it was in the neighborhood of $1M or so.

[mojmann]

8 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Some of this was the era, attendance was lower back then. But the '73 Orioles won 97 games and the division, but averaged 11,835 fans a game (9th in a 12-team league) after the Senators moved to Texas. They had a little more than half the attendance of the 85-77 Tigers.

 

It was definitely a different time. If you look at '73 attendance, seven teams (including the Orioles) were under 1 million. And only two -- the Dodgers and Reds (just barely) -- were over 2 million. 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/1973-misc.shtml

[Frobby]

1 minute ago, DrungoHazewood said:

The '66 Champs drew fewer fans than the 2022 or 2019 Orioles. The '69-71 Orioles went to the Series three straight years, the '72-74 Orioles drew under 1M fans three straight years. 

Some of this was the era, attendance was lower back then. But the '73 Orioles won 97 games and the division, but averaged 11,835 fans a game (9th in a 12-team league) after the Senators moved to Texas. They had a little more than half the attendance of the 85-77 Tigers.

If anyone starts feeling badly for the owners of that time, remember that the minimum player salary appears to have been something like $17,000. And the O's entire payroll for 1973 looks like it was in the neighborhood of $1M or so.

The uptick in attendance in the late 70’s and early ‘80’s is attributable to a few factors IMO.

1.  Increased attendance from the DC area.   The Senators left DC after 1972, but it took DC-area fans a while to warm up to the Orioles.   The stellar coverage of the Orioles by Tom Boswell and Richard Justice in the Washington Post helped a lot of DC area fans to finally decide that seeing the Orioles was worth the trip to Baltimore.  

2.  The perception of the Orioles as heady underdogs.   The exodus of Reggie Jackson, Bobby Grich and Wayne Gsrland in the first full-fledged offseason of free agency (1976-77) really set up the Orioles to appear to be a doomed franchise.   Instead, the ‘77 team, with rookies such as Eddie Murray, Dennis Martinez and Rich Dauer and a bunch of other young guys, really captured the public’s imagination.  I honestly think those 1977-83 Orioles were more beloved than the 1966-71 Birds because they just fit so well with Baltimore’s self-image.  
 

[DrungoHazewood]

28 minutes ago, Frobby said:

The uptick in attendance in the late 70’s and early ‘80’s is attributable to a few factors IMO.

1.  Increased attendance from the DC area.   The Senators left DC after 1972, but it took DC-area fans a while to warm up to the Orioles.   The stellar coverage of the Orioles by Tom Boswell and Richard Justice in the Washington Post helped a lot of DC area fans to finally decide that seeing the Orioles was worth the trip to Baltimore.  

2.  The perception of the Orioles as heady underdogs.   The exodus of Reggie Jackson, Bobby Grich and Wayne Gsrland in the first full-fledged offseason of free agency (1976-77) really set up the Orioles to appear to be a doomed franchise.   Instead, the ‘77 team, with rookies such as Eddie Murray, Dennis Martinez and Rich Dauer and a bunch of other young guys, really captured the public’s imagination.  I honestly think those 1977-83 Orioles were more beloved than the 1966-71 Birds because they just fit so well with Baltimore’s self-image.  
 

I also wouldn't discount the degree of difficulty of getting to and from Memorial Stadium. It was about a 20 minute drive north of the harbor in good traffic. On surface streets, no interstates or freeways, no real public transport. It was in a residential area without gameday bars or restaurants, and by the 1970s maybe not the greatest area.

Today 395 dumps you out essentially in the OPACY parking lots, and you can take light rail or Uber or whatever, too. Or stay downtown and walk. Unless you lived in the neighborhood you weren't walking to Memorial Stadium.

[Frobby]

3 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I also wouldn't discount the degree of difficulty of getting to and from Memorial Stadium. It was about a 20 minute drive north of the harbor in good traffic. On surface streets, no interstates or freeways, no real public transport. It was in a residential area without gameday bars or restaurants, and by the 1970s maybe not the greatest area.

Today 395 dumps you out essentially in the OPACY parking lots, and you can take light rail or Uber or whatever, too. Or stay downtown and walk. Unless you lived in the neighborhood you weren't walking to Memorial Stadium.

Oh, absolutely.  For fans living south of Baltimore, getting to Camden Yards is a picnic compared to getting to Memorial Stadium.  I was just explaining why those ‘77-83 pre-OPACY teams drew so well compared to the arguably superior 1966-71 teams.  

[Going Underground]

In 1970 only two teams averaged over 20,000 fans a game. Mets at 32 000 and the Reds at 22,000. Onky the Mets drew over 2 million. This was when you only could watch games on regular tv. You definitely did not have the ability to see every game. Probably would depend on the market you were in. NY,Chicago,LA and SF area you could watch two teams. Was wondering if you could pick up the Senator  games in the Baltimore area? 

Edited August 7, 2023 by Going Underground

[DrungoHazewood]

53 minutes ago, mojmann said:

It was definitely a different time. If you look at '73 attendance, seven teams (including the Orioles) were under 1 million. And only two -- the Dodgers and Reds (just barely) -- were over 2 million. 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/1973-misc.shtml

There's probably a doctoral thesis in urban planning or sociology in this topic, but I think a combination of the baby boomers hitting full stride in their careers and earnings, the beginnings of urban revitalization, and ever-more exposure in media were the keys to the attendance boom that started somewhere around 1980.

Baseball has always been terrified of media expsoure disrupting their old business models. First radio was going to keep everyone away from the park and kill their revenues, then TV, then cable, then HD TV, now streaming. But it's clear in retrospect that each of those things has increased interest in the game which drives up revenues. At least at the Major League level. There's a good argument that media exposure to MLB teams helped kill grassroots minor league baseball.

Edited August 7, 2023 by DrungoHazewood