John Means pitching for Bowie tonight?

[Jim'sKid26]

8 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Right, but "velocity will come with more outings" is different than "it's already back to where he was pre-injury". If that is what you're saying.

This obsession with velocity must lie in our ability to measure it and not in its inherent impact on effectiveness. Means is not a power pitcher. He gets guys out by mixing pitches, locating his secondary stuff and throwing one of the best changeups in baseball. I've heard several announcers state that he can throw his changeup to a batter who is anticipating it and still get a swing and miss. It's that good. 

If he is sitting 91-92 and can throw his secondaries for strikes, he'll be fine, IMHO. He gets MLB hitters out by keeping them off balance. Not by overpowering them.

[Just Regular]

I think its reasonable to hope for a little more in the tank.    He's a length pitcher building up, even apart from the Tommy John return angle.   I don't know if in spring 2021-2022 his Grapefruit velo was a little under regular season, but I think that'd be a little better comp to the last few turns.

Like Hays and Mullins, he's been through the low lows, and adrenaline will be spiking when he gets his chance to contribute a little to this year's team performance.

Tides go up to Worcester next week.     72 pitches last night is I feel a full packet for the role he'll get.    Unless cruising in a lopsided game, I don't expect anyone to pitch much past that in the tournament.      5 weeks to go, Gibson and Kremer keep stacking innings in the bank to help everybody out.

[banks703]

14 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Do you think he needs more velo or not? That was the implication of "it will come with more outings".

I do not think that he needs more velo right now to take on some starts. Velo was never his thing. Spin rate, control, command of the change are what make him a successful pitcher. The added velo was nice but it wasn’t what made him good. 

[Aristotelian]

4 minutes ago, Jim'sKid26 said:

This obsession with velocity must lie in our ability to measure it and not in its inherent impact on effectiveness. Means is not a power pitcher. He gets guys out by mixing pitches, locating his secondary stuff and throwing one of the best changeups in baseball. I've heard several announcers state that he can throw his changeup to a batter who is anticipating it and still get a swing and miss. It's that good. 

If he is sitting 91-92 and can throw his secondaries for strikes, he'll be fine, IMHO. He gets MLB hitters out by keeping them off balance. Not by overpowering them.

 

4 minutes ago, Jim'sKid26 said:

This obsession with velocity must lie in our ability to measure it and not in its inherent impact on effectiveness. Means is not a power pitcher. He gets guys out by mixing pitches, locating his secondary stuff and throwing one of the best changeups in baseball. I've heard several announcers state that he can throw his changeup to a batter who is anticipating it and still get a swing and miss. It's that good. 

If he is sitting 91-92 and can throw his secondaries for strikes, he'll be fine, IMHO. He gets MLB hitters out by keeping them off balance. Not by overpowering them.

I don't disagree, just questioning OP's contradictory statements. 

I haven't seen any of his rehab appearances, but my concern if velo is down is the effect on FB/CH differential. The FB does not have to be 97 but it does have to be fast enough to put the hitter off balance. 

Perhaps the biggest concern, if velocity is down that is a sign he is not 100%, either physically or mentally. Who knows what affect that could have when you are facing the best hitters on the planet in a pennant race.

[banks703]

8 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

 

I don't disagree, just questioning OP's contradictory statements. 

I haven't seen any of his rehab appearances, but my concern if velo is down is the effect on FB/CH differential. The FB does not have to be 97 but it does have to be fast enough to put the hitter off balance. 

Perhaps the biggest concern, if velocity is down that is a sign he is not 100%, either physically or mentally. Who knows what affect that could have when you are facing the best hitters on the planet in a pennant race.

Means’s movement on his change is more important than even the change in speeds from his FB.

If you’re referring to my “contradictory statements” I have some reading comprehension courses that I can recommend. At no point have I contradicted that Means’s velo is a concern. It isn’t and it shouldn’t be for you either. He isn’t a power pitcher who needs the extra 1ish mph to be successful. He’s proven that already in his career. The concerns over his velo are unwarranted. 

[Aristotelian]

23 minutes ago, banks703 said:

Means’s movement on his change is more important than even the change in speeds from his FB.

If you’re referring to my “contradictory statements” I have some reading comprehension courses that I can recommend. At no point have I contradicted that Means’s velo is a concern. It isn’t and it shouldn’t be for you either. He isn’t a power pitcher who needs the extra 1ish mph to be successful. He’s proven that already in his career. The concerns over his velo are unwarranted. 

Lol at first you said it will come back, then you said it already is back, and now you are saying movement is more important/he doesn't need it. I don't particularly disagree but those are all different statements.

[banks703]

21 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Lol at first you said it will come back, then you said it already is back, and now you are saying movement is more important/he doesn't need it. I don't particularly disagree but those are all different statements.

I never claimed that his velo was back. My statement was that he would regain some velo with more innings. In a separate statement I stated that he didn’t need the extra mph to successfully navigate a lineup as a starter, which he doesn’t.

Would you like those reading comprehension courses? 

[seak05]

2 hours ago, banks703 said:

I posted the below after his first start. It’s in this very thread if you go to the first or second page: 

 

His average velocity on his FB:

2018   90.2

2019   91.9

2020   93.9

2021   92.9

2022   92.3

 

Again, not concerned with his velo right now. 

In 2018 Means pitched 3 innings and had a 13+ ERA. In every other year he avg fb velocity has been ~92+. His game isn't velocity based, but you need enough velocity to keep guys honest, and to make your breaking stuff play up. 2 MPH difference doesn't sound like a lot, but it is. If Mean has an avg fb velocity of 90, then that's going to make it much harder for him at the ML level. This isn't a long term conversation, this is a what happens in the next couple starts in September conversation. If you think he's going to add a couple mph of velocity between now and his next start, ok. But that seems doubtful, so I personally am not really counting on him at the ML level until his FB velocity increases. 

[banks703]

18 minutes ago, seak05 said:

In 2018 Means pitched 3 innings and had a 13+ ERA. In every other year he avg fb velocity has been ~92+. His game isn't velocity based, but you need enough velocity to keep guys honest, and to make your breaking stuff play up. 2 MPH difference doesn't sound like a lot, but it is. If Mean has an avg fb velocity of 90, then that's going to make it much harder for him at the ML level. This isn't a long term conversation, this is a what happens in the next couple starts in September conversation. If you think he's going to add a couple mph of velocity between now and his next start, ok. But that seems doubtful, so I personally am not really counting on him at the ML level until his FB velocity increases. 

He topped out at 92.5 last night. I don’t expect him to be throwing max effort while building up his pitch count. His velo is fine for his fourth start.

In his first start he was 91-93. He threw 45 pitches his second start and 57 pitches his last start. He’s on track. His velo is fine. 

[Aristotelian]

1 hour ago, banks703 said:

I never claimed that his velo was back. My statement was that he would regain some velo with more innings. In a separate statement I stated that he didn’t need the extra mph to successfully navigate a lineup as a starter, which he doesn’t.

Would you like those reading comprehension courses? 

Exactly, making the same point but changing your rationale from post to post. You just make yourself look more foolish using lame old message board insults. Go ahead and have the last word, I will have you on ignore anyway.

[banks703]

1 minute ago, Aristotelian said:

Exactly, making the same point but changing your rationale from post to post. You just make yourself look more foolish using lame old message board insults. Go ahead and have the last word, I will have you on ignore anyway.

Sure, pal. It’s not my fault you can’t read. 

[Sports Guy]

https://x.com/jakedrill/status/1698408124758348083?s=46&t=G3On-_LleGmZce-r3ClVZA
 

He will get another rehab start, as he should.

[Frobby]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

https://x.com/jakedrill/status/1698408124758348083?s=46&t=G3On-_LleGmZce-r3ClVZA
 

He will get another rehab start, as he should.

I could have seen it either way, from the standpoint of his personal readiness.  But it does give the team a little more time to decide how to rejigger the rotation (if at all) once he’s back.  

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I could have seen it either way, from the standpoint of his personal readiness.  But it does give the team a little more time to decide how to rejigger the rotation (if at all) once he’s back.  

I would guess Flaherty could be on thin ice today..but he’s not the only one.

[banks703]

I’m not sure what else he could do to help them with their decision making but alright. He doesn’t have to be activated for another couple days. I just would have rather he get his first action against the Angels vs. one of the teams competing for a playoff spot.

Maybe they want him to get closer to 100 pitches.