New Book details Barry Bond's Steriod Use

[NJOriolesFan]

Do you gain an advantage over the opposition by drinking and/or drinking and driving?

That isn't the argument. Who cares if he gained an advantage? Many players have gained advantage for many other reasons.

Drinking and driving can KILL people. It is like running around with a loaded gun and your finger on the trigger. It is ILLEGAL and could cause harm to people.

Steroids only hurts the person doing them and baseball "allowed" it to happen. You can't condemn a person for doing what is allowed. Like it or not you simply can not.

I honestly think all these arguments stem from people HATING Barry Bonds and nothing else. People are delighted that they can have ammunition to keep him out of the Hall-of-Fame because they hate him so much. I honestly can not tell what he has done personality-wise to make people hate him so much.

[NJOriolesFan]

You either didn't read my whole post, or you didn't understand the point I was making- because I agree with you on this.

My point is that Rose wasn't caught "in the act"- they investigated and found that he did bet on baseball and rightfully punished him.

I suggest that they can do the same to Bonds. That post was in response to your claim that Bonds is "untouchable" because he didn't fail an MLB drug test.

A drug test is just one mechanism to enforce the rules, not the only one.

No. But Rose was "proven" to have bet on baseball during a time it was against the rules and penalties were established.

If they can prove Bonds took steroids when there was a policy in place that included suspensions perhaps they could do something. However, I recall something written in to the policy that everybody would start with a clean slate regardless of what is later found out.

[66-70-83-??]

Steroids only hurts the person doing them and baseball "allowed" it to happen. You can't condemn a person for doing what is allowed. Like it or not you simply can not.

I honestly think all these arguments stem from people HATING Barry Bonds and nothing else. People are delighted that they can have ammunition to keep him out of the Hall-of-Fame because they hate him so much. I honestly can not tell what he has done personality-wise to make people hate him so much.

Steroids hurt the entire game. It questions the integrity of every ball game when one player is using artificial (and illegal) means to gain an advantage.

You can't condemn a person for doing what is allowed ???????

People are "allowed" to be bigots, racists, etc....and we condemn them everyday.

But, I question that baseball ever "allowed" it. Breaking the law is always "implied" as the wrong thing to do in any set of an organizations rules. My company handbook doesn't say that I can't drink and drive, shoplift, etc....but I am not willing to say they "allow" it on company time or otherwise.

Can you provide a link to where Bud (or previous commissioners) stated "It is ALLOWABLE to use illegal steroids in MLB" ?

I guess they allow child porn in the clubhouse too, because I haven't seen Bud or anyone else say it is NOT allowed.

That last bit of your post about "hating" Bonds is a lame, straw man argument. I do not like Bonds, I will admit. But, I am capable of a reasoned, objective argument on the issue.

[NJOriolesFan]

Steroids hurt the entire game. It questions the integrity of every ball game when one player is using artificial (and illegal) means to gain an advantage.

You can't condemn a person for doing what is allowed ???????

People are "allowed" to be bigots, racists, etc....and we condemn them everyday.

But, I question that baseball ever "allowed" it. Breaking the law is always "implied" as the wrong thing to do in any set of an organizations rules. My company handbook doesn't say that I can't drink and drive, shoplift, etc....but I am not willing to say they "allow" it on company time or otherwise.

Can you provide a link to where Bud (or previous commissioners) stated "It is ALLOWABLE to use illegal steroids in MLB" ?

I guess they allow child porn in the clubhouse too, because I haven't seen Bud or anyone else say it is NOT allowed.

That last bit of your post about "hating" Bonds is a lame, straw man argument. I do not like Bonds, I will admit. But, I am capable of a reasoned, objective argument on the issue.

They knew about it and did nothing about it.....therefore it is allowed.

Secondly there is more anger about this and more pages on this thread than ones against Caminiti or McGwire, simply because people are passionate about their dislike for Bonds.

Until they can come up with a sure fire way to retroactively test EVERY player from the steroid era to determine whether or not they were users, you either have to throw away the whole era or accept the whole era. Even to say that we know that Bonds, Canseco, Caminiti and Giambi took steroids doesn't mean we can allow other players from that era to be excused.

[NJOriolesFan]

Steroids hurt the entire game. It questions the integrity of every ball game when one player is using artificial (and illegal) means to gain an advantage.

When did sports ever have integrity? There are some very good people and some very genuine moments but sports is a business of greed, cut-throat competition and circumventing rules to gain an upper-hand. Think about that for a moment and tell me if baseball has this high level of integrity that you speak of.

Steinbrenner is a two time criminal and his greed and self-righteousness contribute to a very unbalanced product on the field and claims that Yankees are of the highest level of integrity.

[66-70-83-??]

They knew about it and did nothing about it.....therefore it is allowed.

Secondly there is more anger about this and more pages on this thread than ones against Caminiti or McGwire, simply because people are passionate about their dislike for Bonds.

Until they can come up with a sure fire way to retroactively test EVERY player from the steroid era to determine whether or not they were users, you either have to throw away the whole era or accept the whole era. Even to say that we know that Bonds, Canseco, Caminiti and Giambi took steroids doesn't mean we can allow other players from that era to be excused.

First of all, I agree that in the end, they will most likely have to accept the whole era as the "steroid era". But, that doesn't mean that I can't get on my soapbox here and spout opinions on what could or should be done. :002_sbiggrin:

About testing retroactively- Doesn't the FEDS have possession of a whole bunch of test samples/results ???? :002_ssuprised: :002_ssuprised:

Who knows- maybe some players aren't out of the woods yet.

As far as people disliking Bonds more than McGwire- McGwire is retired and he was apparantly a "nice guy". Bonds could have been an American Icon. Bonds earned his reputation. He has brought many of his problems onto himself.

[Odenton O]

One other comment twoB --

If what you're saying about US law being inherently embodied in all of sports, then several sports that amount to organized assault could never exist -- boxers, football players, hockey players would be getting arrested left and right.

There's a divide between law and sport. Period.

Don't be ridiculous. Its called "consent." Every football player knows what's going to happen when he straps on the pads. None of it contitutes an assualt under the law. (And wasn't there one case of a hocky player getting arrested for a particularly egregious assualt on the ice a year or two ago)?

[YardBird]

Don't be ridiculous. Its called "consent." Every football player knows what's going to happen when he straps on the pads. None of it contitutes an assualt under the law. (And wasn't there one case of a hocky player getting arrested for a particularly egregious assualt on the ice a year or two ago)?

Todd Bertuzzi. He skated up behind Steve Moore and sucker punched him in the back of the head, causing all kinds of major medical problems. I can't recall what happened to him legally, but his suspension ended up being a grand total of a couple months (The NHL counted the lockout as part of his punishment)

There was another case a little furhter back where Marty McSorely beat the living bejesus out of a guy with his stick.

[davearm]

You either didn't read my whole post, or you didn't understand the point I was making- because I agree with you on this.

My point is that Rose wasn't caught "in the act"- they investigated and found that he did bet on baseball and rightfully punished him.

I suggest that they can do the same to Bonds. That post was in response to your claim that Bonds is "untouchable" because he didn't fail an MLB drug test.

A drug test is just one mechanism to enforce the rules, not the only one.

I see what you're saying now. I suppose MLB could punish Bonds retroactively, if an investigation were to uncover steroid use.

However the worst thing they could do to him, IMO, is mark him as a first-time offender, and apply whatever the punishment was for a first-time offender at the time of the confirmed steroid use.

So, if they can prove Bonds used steroids prior to 2003 -- no penalty of any kind (since there was no policy in place then).

If they can prove he used in 2003 -- again, no penalty, since there was a policy then, but all the testing was anonymous and there were no penalties attached to a failed test.

In 2004 -- 10-game suspension for a first-time offender.

In 2005 -- 50-game suspension for a first-time offender.

So, worst case (for Bonds), if MLB could somehow prove that Bonds was doping last season (even absent a positive test), they could hit him with 50 games.

Of course, without a positive test, Don Fehr and his MLBPA gang would have an absolute field day filing grieveances, lawsuits, appeals, injunctions, etc. etc.

[davearm]

Don't be ridiculous. Its called "consent." Every football player knows what's going to happen when he straps on the pads. None of it contitutes an assualt under the law. (And wasn't there one case of a hocky player getting arrested for a particularly egregious assualt on the ice a year or two ago)?

I'm pretty sure Jack Kevorkian would take exception to your "consent" argument, seeing as he's been in prison for years now. He had the full consent of his "victims"... in fact, they came to him asking for his help. That didn't make his activity any less criminal.

[ledzepp8]

That isn't the argument. Who cares if he gained an advantage? Many players have gained advantage for many other reasons.

Drinking and driving can KILL people. It is like running around with a loaded gun and your finger on the trigger. It is ILLEGAL and could cause harm to people.

Steroids only hurts the person doing them and baseball "allowed" it to happen. You can't condemn a person for doing what is allowed. Like it or not you simply can not.

I honestly think all these arguments stem from people HATING Barry Bonds and nothing else. People are delighted that they can have ammunition to keep him out of the Hall-of-Fame because they hate him so much. I honestly can not tell what he has done personality-wise to make people hate him so much.

Actually the argument is about whether or not he cheated even though he never tested positive, so that's exactly what the argument is. I don't think anyone on here has said don't put him the HOF because he broke the law, but that he used something that was illegal in the US and helped him cheat by gaining an advantage. So I fail to see what drunk driving has to do with anything. The only reason legalities were brought into the discussion was because some people are trying to say that Baseball had no rule against steroids(which I still disagree with)so it wasn't cheating and he can't be punished.

Once again I would still assume that there was a rule against steroid use in baseball prior to just recently. Just because they weren't strict with that rule doesn't mean it wasn't there.

Are you honestly unsure of why people dislike Barry Bonds? Not only is he a huge jerk who blames all of his problems on others, but he is a cheater. He was already HOF worthy before he started using steroids. And from what I've heard he started using out of jealousy and desire to break records.

[NJOriolesFan]

Of course, without a positive test, Don Fehr and his MLBPA gang would have an absolute field day filing grieveances, lawsuits, appeals, injunctions, etc. etc.

And he would probably be retired before it was ever settled.

[NJOriolesFan]

Actually the argument is about whether or not he cheated even though he never tested positive, so that's exactly what the argument is. I don't think anyone on here has said don't put him the HOF because he broke the law, but that he used something that was illegal in the US and helped him cheat by gaining an advantage. So I fail to see what drunk driving has to do with anything. The only reason legalities were brought into the discussion was because some people are trying to say that Baseball had no rule against steroids(which I still disagree with)so it wasn't cheating and he can't be punished.

Once again I would still assume that there was a rule against steroid use in baseball prior to just recently. Just because they weren't strict with that rule doesn't mean it wasn't there.

Are you honestly unsure of why people dislike Barry Bonds? Not only is he a huge jerk who blames all of his problems on others, but he is a cheater. He was already HOF worthy before he started using steroids. And from what I've heard he started using out of jealousy and desire to break records.

I'm up for the challenge. Cite examples where he is or has been a jerk. Where has he blamed others for his problems? Bonds cheated in the sense that he did something that was wrong but baseball did not have a drug policy in the CBA. I know everybody has said he is a jerk but I have never seen him be more of a jerk than 50%-70% of the players in baseball. I don't think he has ever been as bad as Albert Belle or Jeff Kent or Jim Rice or Dave Kingman or Roberto Alomar or countless others. I know people don't like him and people like to say he is a jerk but where are the anecdotes that show that he has been anything more than cynical and aloof?

[mweb]

Actually the argument is about whether or not he cheated even though he never tested positive, so that's exactly what the argument is. I don't think anyone on here has said don't put him the HOF because he broke the law, but that he used something that was illegal in the US and helped him cheat by gaining an advantage. So I fail to see what drunk driving has to do with anything. The only reason legalities were brought into the discussion was because some people are trying to say that Baseball had no rule against steroids(which I still disagree with)so it wasn't cheating and he can't be punished.

Once again I would still assume that there was a rule against steroid use in baseball prior to just recently. Just because they weren't strict with that rule doesn't mean it wasn't there.

Are you honestly unsure of why people dislike Barry Bonds? Not only is he a huge jerk who blames all of his problems on others, but he is a cheater. He was already HOF worthy before he started using steroids. And from what I've heard he started using out of jealousy and desire to break records.

How do you feel about pitchers who used illegal pitches? What do you feel about players using greenies to keep their energy high? Corked bats?

Not saying all those are as bad as steroids, just wondering where you stand on those competitive advantages.

[Odenton O]

I'm pretty sure Jack Kevorkian would take exception to your "consent" argument, seeing as he's been in prison for years now. He had the full consent of his "victims"... in fact, they came to him asking for his help. That didn't make his activity any less criminal.

Assisted suicide laws are different from assault and battery laws. A battery is defined by the law as nonconsensual offensive contact. An assault is defined as an attempted battery. If you don’t have the “nonconsensual,” (I.e., it IS consensual) no battery. Kevorkian can take all the exception he wants.