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Cease vs everyone else


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1 minute ago, wildbillhiccup said:

It feels like we're splitting hairs here. All I'm saying is that there will be less margin for error with fewer high draft picks (in the future). Can we just agree on that point? 

With the ROY pick, our regular slot, and the competitive balance pick. We have three picks in the first 35 or so. He found Gunnar in the second round. Sure it’s obviously not going to be as easy as the 1st pick in the draft but I have faith at our decision makers to draft and develop, and supplement with international players that we really have never been as prepared as we are now.

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1 minute ago, wildbillhiccup said:

It feels like we're splitting hairs here. All I'm saying is that there will be less margin for error with fewer high draft picks (in the future). Can we just agree on that point? 

Seems like a fair point to me.  Without top 5 picks and the pool money that goes along with it, it will be tougher.  Period.  At the same time, as that happens the Latin American program seems to be producing (4 players from the 2022 class in the FCL top 20, along with Basallo (2021).   I also think last years amateur draft had more input from the developmental side of the organization and it might be one of, if not, the deepest drafts we’ve had.  Hitting on a Henderson or Holliday on the amateur side will be tougher but I still like our chances of finding Cowser, Kjerstad, and Westburg types.  In fact, I’d say that Beavers and Horvath might compare favorably over the next 12 months.

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6 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Seems like a fair point to me.  Without top 5 picks and the pool money that goes along with it, it will be tougher.  Period.  At the same time, as that happens the Latin American program seems to be producing (4 players from the 2022 class in the FCL top 20, along with Basallo (2021).   I also think last years amateur draft had more input from the developmental side of the organization and it might be one of, if not, the deepest drafts we’ve had.  Hitting on a Henderson or Holliday on the amateur side will be tougher but I still like our chances of finding Cowser, Kjerstad, and Westburg types.  In fact, I’d say that Beavers and Horvath might compare favorably over the next 12 months.

I think the big piece that wasn’t brought up (until now) is the draft pool money.

Don’t sleep on the 53rd pick from last year.  Kids a stud.  

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5 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

I think the big piece that wasn’t brought up (until now) is the draft pool money.

Don’t sleep on the 53rd pick from last year.  Kids a stud.  

I've mentioned it.

Mayo got high second round money.  Gunnar got more than 500K over slot.

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1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

I've mentioned it.

Mayo got high second round money.  Gunnar got more than 500K over slot.

Right.  No savings on Bradfield last year and still able to go 600k over for Baumeister.  It’s more difficult but it’s doable.

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3 hours ago, emmett16 said:

Heh?  They tanked, sure.  But to say that was the sole strategy you’re missing the boat.  They turned over almost the entire organization,  built an international program from scratch, built a DR training facility, implemented new age development techniques, and started the pipeline that will be delivering players for years to come.  Their strategy wasnt tanking.  They built an entire new baseball organization from scratch.  I’ll give them a pass on not wasting money on the MLB product during that process, I’ll also wait patiently to see how the 2024 roster unfolds because every single poster (including myself) has been proven wrong when doubting them.  

These aren’t strategies to gain a competitive advantage nor are they anything new. It should be commended (and been done a long time ago) but does not give the Orioles a unique strength

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4 hours ago, brooooksy said:

They haven’t won anything.

they rebuilt 2014-2018. What this poster is arguing is that what the orioles are doing now will somehow not require a rebuild

They’re obviously successful, but limited by their payroll from making a sustained run or winning it all. 

BTW - their most recent run is inflated by the tanking orioles throwing games (8-32)

And their superior run differential last year (with a higher payroll) was deflated by the 101 win Orioles who found a unique competitive  advantage.  Ironic, don’t you think? 

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7 hours ago, brooooksy said:

They haven’t won anything.

they rebuilt 2014-2018. What this poster is arguing is that what the orioles are doing now will somehow not require a rebuild

They’re obviously successful, but limited by their payroll from making a sustained run or winning it all. 

BTW - their most recent run is inflated by the tanking orioles throwing games (8-32)

The only way for the O's or a team on a similarly limited farm system to replenish the farm is to trade their top players with a year or two before free agency.  The O's can't let their best players hit free agency and only get a draft pick or get a last minute Machado type of return.

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9 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I've mentioned it.

Mayo got high second round money.  Gunnar got more than 500K over slot.

By taking this approach and international talent is key. But, the Rays have made trades but still have produced homegrown guys without the benefit of high picks

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Assuming Elias has actually made an offer for Cease here’s my guess and why.

Norby, Beavers, Povich, Baumann

1. A low ball offer but along the lines of the Flaherty deal, quantity but with a better grade of prospects.

2. A WS “insider” said that Getz wanted Norby.  Our Husker fan mentioned Povich was available even though he mentioned a different team.

3. Beavers is behind Cowser, Kjerstad, and maybe even Mayo for COF.

4. Baumann is out of options, in danger of not making our bullpen, but easily makes the WS, also cheap with tons of service time.  Can even try starting him again.

White Sox holding out for a headliner like Basallo, Mayo, or Kjerstad.  Rumors are that big 3, + Kjerstad/Cowser are not on the table.

From an Oriole fan perspective, anyone, I think, would do this deal in a NY minute.  Getz can’t do it without one big prospect name coming back.   No other team seems willing to step up (Red Sox with Mayer/Anthony), (Reds with Marte), (Yankees with Jones).   Does Getz cave in for the best deal out there?   Does Elias substitute Kjerstad for Beavers (and possibly Ortiz for Norby) to make it happen?    
 

 

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14 hours ago, Roll Tide said:

here’s your data coolie….

Fact …. The Orioles were 20-13 in Gibson’s starts. In 15 of them he hung around long enough to win and pile on innings to save our bullpen. And they lost 5 games after he departed. So it’s fair to say 5 of the 13 losses weren’t his fault. So of 33 starts he could be held responsible for exactly 8 losses. He sucked! 

I think that says a lot about his contribution that you devalued because it was centered on Wins. 

As of right now not resigning him was a blunder. I would’ve rather signed Gibson to the contract he got than waste $13 million on Kimbrel who the Phillies fans couldn’t wait to run out of town 
 

 

While I think Gibson ended up doing the job of a 1 year, $10 million starter last year, I do not think he's a guy they should have resigned. 

They needed to upgrade that and a pitcher like Cease does upgrade the rotation. While I don't necessarily think Cease is an absolute stud that you give up the farm for (seem that's what the white sox want), he certainly is a better overall pitcher than Gibson.

Now, if the Orioles fail to land him or another starter at that level, would Gibson had made some sense at $13 million a year, perhaps, but he's not the guy you land early in the offseason.

The Orioles have some decent backup options in case they don't land a quality top 1-3 starter, but I think they should be past signing mediocrity to fill out there rotation. 

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I think we've reached that part of the offseason where there's not much that hasn't been discussed so now everyone gets testy! :D

Still, we're only 52 pages away from 300 on this one so keep at it, but try and be nice!

Remember, they're just opinions not personal attacks on you as a person. Even if you are wrong! :D

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2 minutes ago, SoxFan3344 said:

Nightengale this morning said Sox asking for either Cowser or Kjerstad as the headliner. Mentioned Spencer Jones or Chase Hampton from the Yankees also. Very reasonable asks of both teams. 

Spencer Jones bust potential is MUCH higher than either Kjerstad or Cowser.  I don’t see that as equal asks.

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  • Posts

    • dWAR is just the run value for defense added with the defensive adjustment.  Corner OF spots have a -7.5 run adjustment, while CF has a +2.5 adjustment over 150 games.    Since Cowser played both CF and the corners they pro-rate his time at each to calculate his defensive adjustment. 
    • Just to be clear, though, fWAR also includes a substantial adjustment for position, including a negative one for Cowser.  For a clearer example on that front, as the chart posted higher on this page indicates, Carlos Santana had a +14 OAA — which is the source data that fWAR’s defensive component is based on. That 14 outs above average equates to 11-12 (they use different values on this for some reason) runs better than the average 1B.  So does Santana have a 12.0 defensive value, per fWAR? He does not. That’s because they adjust his defensive value downward to reflect that he’s playing a less difficult/valuable position. In this case, that adjustment comes out to -11.0 runs, as you can see here:   So despite apparently having a bona fide Gold Glove season, Santana’s Fielding Runs value (FanGraphs’ equivalent to dWAR) is barely above average, at 1.1 runs.    Any good WAR calculation is going to adjust for position. Being a good 1B just isn’t worth as much as being an average SS or catcher. Just as being a good LF isn’t worth as much as being an average CF. Every outfielder can play LF — only the best outfielders can play CF.  Where the nuance/context shows up here is with Cowser’s unique situation. Playing LF in OPACY, with all that ground to cover, is not the same as playing LF at Fenway or Yankee Stadium. Treating Cowser’s “position” as equivalent to Tyler O’Neill’s, for example, is not fair. The degree of difficulty is much, much higher at OPACY’s LF, and so the adjustment seems out of whack for him. That’s the one place where I’d say the bWAR value is “unfair” to Cowser.
    • Wait a second here, the reason he's -0.1 in bb-ref dwar is because they're using drs to track his defensive run value.  He's worth 6.6 runs in defense according to fangraphs, which includes adjustments for position, which would give him a fangraphs defensive war of +0.7.
    • A little funny to have provided descriptions of the hits (“weak” single; “500 foot” HR). FIP doesn’t care about any of that either, so it’s kind of an odd thing to add in an effort to make ERA look bad.  Come in, strike out the first hitter, then give up three 108 MPH rocket doubles off the wall. FIP thinks you were absolutely outstanding, and it’s a shame your pathetic defense and/or sheer bad luck let you down. Next time you’ll (probably) get the outcomes you deserve. They’re both flawed. So is xFIP. So is SIERA. So is RA/9. So is WPA. So is xERA. None of them are perfect measures of how a pitcher’s actual performance was, because there’s way too much context and too many variables for any one metric to really encompass.  But when I’m thinking about awards, for me at least, it ends up having to be about the actual outcomes. I don’t really care what a hitter’s xWOBA is when I’m thinking about MVP, and the same is true for pitchers. Did you get the outs? Did the runs score? That’s the “value” that translates to the scoreboard and, ultimately, to the standings. So I think the B-R side of it is more sensible for awards.  I definitely take into account the types of factors that you (and other pitching fWAR advocates) reference as flaws. So if a guy plays in front of a particular bad defense or had a particularly high percentage of inherited runners score, I’d absolutely adjust my take to incorporate that info. And I also 100% go to Fangraphs first when I’m trying to figure out which pitchers we should acquire (i.e., for forward looking purposes).  But I just can’t bring myself say that my Cy Young is just whichever guy had the best ratio of Ks to BBs to HRs over a threshold number of innings. As @Frobby said, it just distills out too much of what actually happened.
    • We were all a lot younger in 2005.  No one wanted to believe Canseco cause he’s a smarmy guy. Like I said, he was the only one telling the truth. It wasn’t a leap of faith to see McGwire up there and Sosa up there and think “yeah, those guys were juicing” but then suddenly look at Raffy and think he was completely innocent.  It’s a sad story. The guy should be in Hall of Fame yet 500 homers and 3,000 hits are gone like a fart in the wind cause his legacy is wagging his finger and thinking he couldn’t get caught.  Don’t fly too close to the sun.  
    • I think if we get the fun sprinkler loving Gunnar that was in the dugout yesterday, I don’t think we have to worry about him pressing. He seemed loose and feeling good with the other guys he was with, like Kremer.
    • I was a lot younger back then, but that betrayal hit really hard because he had been painting himself as literally holier than thou, and shook his finger to a congressional committee and then barely 2 weeks later failed the test.
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