Santander for Bieber

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, NCRaven said:

I’m against it simply because I’m not a Bieber believer.  His year after year trend doesn’t fill me with confidence that he’d actually prove more value than Gibson did.  I’m fine with including Santander in a trade for pitching.  Just want to aim higher.

What exactly do you think he’s worth?

 

[NCRaven]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

What exactly do you think he’s worth?

 

He might have to be part of a package for younger pitchers with more control.  Alone he might no be worth much more than Bieber.  I’d rather target Seattle or Miami for pitching. Maybe you keep Santander and let him walk ala Houston’s MO.  Use the prospect depth to acquire a better pitcher than Biebs.

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

If you trade Santander, you are giving away 100 runs on average. Who is going to replace those 100 runs that has just been taken off the team? 

Kjerstad and/or Cowser.  Now, will they replace every single run?  Maybe not, but most of them.  And then the bet is that Bieber saves us more runs compared to whoever the 5th starter would be and allows us to use would-be starters in the bullpen, thus improving that facet of the pitching as well.  

[Sydnor]

My father’s a fan of the Cleveland Baseball Team, so I watch them a fair amount if they aren’t playing at the same time as the O’s. As mentioned above, Bieber’s fastball velo has declined every year since the 2020 season. Batters sat off speed this year because they knew he couldn’t beat them with a fastball. His curve was a weapon, but he didn’t throw it as much this year.

Zach Meisel who covers the team for The Athletic and TJ Zuppe who has covered the team in various forms over the years hypothesized that the arm issues that Bieber has had have led to the decreased usage of the curveball. They also discussed this trade idea before Bowden wrote about it. They were of the opinion that Cleveland would probably prefer Hays because of the extra year of control. They also didn’t think it made sense for Cleveland because McKenzie is injury prone, and they have 3 guys (Bibee, Allen, and Williams) that will be in their first full big league seasons, coming off of career highs in innings pitched. They tend to think that if Bieber is going to be moved, they will want a controllable piece or two. 

This discussion also occurred before it was reported Diamond Sports Group intended to reject its contract for the broadcast rights to the Guardians, which reportedly pays the Guardians $55 million per year. The move for Barlow and the Laureano contract are inconsistent with a team that will be cutting costs, but it would not surprise me if the Dolan led ownership group required the front office to reduce payroll. Swapping Bieber for Santander would not achieve this goal.

I personally would not want Bieber. If the O’s could make it a bigger deal and get Clase, I would be willing to move Santander, though I’d prefer to move Hays. I expect Bieber to have a Gibson like year unless he rediscovers his fastball velocity. I also don’t think the Guardians would really want to make this trade because it doesn’t really accomplish their goals. I think their primary goal is to get Straw out of the outfield on a regular basis (Laureano can’t play center, and I think they would prefer to keep Kwan in left, although he could likely handle center).

[RZNJ]

43 minutes ago, Jagwar said:

I'd make the trade, but I would want a FA signing to replace Tony Tater's stats. Who would be available?

You have to be kidding.   We have two top prospects that have A+ AAA and both are RF.  

[Jagwar]

7 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

You have to be kidding.   We have two top prospects that have A+ AAA and both are RF.  

And... neither of them have proven anything at the major league level. 

I don't have to be kidding. YOU don't have to be kidding. 

[Frobby]

8 minutes ago, Jagwar said:

And... neither of them have proven anything at the major league level. 

I don't have to be kidding. YOU don't have to be kidding. 

Somehow the Astros were able to lose Carlos Correa, replace him with a rookie and not miss a beat. I think we’d survive the loss of Santander.   

[Billy F-Face3]

17 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Kjerstad and/or Cowser.  Now, will they replace every single run?  Maybe not, but most of them.  And then the bet is that Bieber saves us more runs compared to whoever the 5th starter would be and allows us to use would-be starters in the bullpen, thus improving that facet of the pitching as well.  

A) Cowser hasn't proven he can handle the major league level yet.

B) I'm more optimistic about Kjerstad (than Cowser), but he's still inexperienced and struggles can be expected while he adjusts.

C) They are both left handed. That doesn't address the fact that the Orioles would be giving up the Right Handed power and versatility that Santander provides. For your idea to work, you would need a reliable right hander with a reliable left hander in a platoon and they have to be as reliable as Santander has been at driving in runs.

D) We've seen from the playoffs this year that experience matters. The moment was too big for our inexperienced players. This means that ideally, you would want to retain what accumulative experience that you do have (and acquire more experience). More experience can be acquired by playing the young guys, but then you would have to wait longer for their development and the odds of them having a Jeremy Pena type of rookie post season are very low when compared to other rookies in the history of the game. A mixture of experience and youth on a roster is usually a good formula for success.

[RZNJ]

10 minutes ago, Jagwar said:

And... neither of them have proven anything at the major league level. 

I don't have to be kidding. YOU don't have to be kidding. 

There’s only one way to find out.  We drafted them. We developed them.  They’re among the top prospects in the game.    Time to take the training wheels off.

[RZNJ]

4 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

A) Cowser hasn't proven he can handle the major league level yet.

B) I'm more optimistic about Kjerstad (than Cowser), but he's still inexperienced and struggles can be expected while he adjusts.

C) They are both left handed. That doesn't address the fact that the Orioles would be giving up the Right Handed power and versatility that Santander provides. For your idea to work, you would need a reliable right hander with a reliable left hander in a platoon and they have to be as reliable as Santander has been at driving in runs.

D) We've seen from the playoffs this year that experience matters. The moment was too big for our inexperienced players. This means that ideally, you would want to retain what accumulative experience that you do have (and acquire more experience). More experience can be acquired by playing the young guys, but then you would have to wait longer for their development and the odds of them having a Jeremy Pena type of rookie post season are very low when compared to other rookies in the history of the game. A mixture of experience and youth on a roster is usually a good formula for success.

Evan Carter says hello.

[Billy F-Face3]

While we are on this subject, I think it's relevant to the topic to remind people of what Deion Sanders said when he was asked what was harder between Football and Baseball. He said of all the things he had to do in sports, hitting that baseball was the hardest.

I'd put more premium on the best power hitter in our lineup than I would an aging pitcher.

[Jagwar]

7 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

There’s only one way to find out.  We drafted them. We developed them.  They’re among the top prospects in the game.    Time to take the training wheels off.

Yes... but I only suggested I'd prefer replacing Santander's production with something proven. Why go ballistic on me for my opinion?

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

While we are on this subject, I think it's relevant to the topic to remind people of what Deion Sanders said when he was asked what was harder between Football and Baseball. He said of all the things he had to do in sports, hitting that baseball was the hardest.

I'd put more premium on the best power hitter in our lineup than I would an aging pitcher.

His career slugging is .002 higher than Mountcastle's. (459 to 457)

Gunner is at 481 for his career.

[Billy F-Face3]

This topic makes me want to go compare Santander's switch hitting statistics with Eddie Murray's. Switch Hitters that can produce like that don't grow on trees. And the teams that have them, usually win more than the other teams. (I.E. Rangers.)

[RZNJ]

6 minutes ago, Jagwar said:

Yes... but I only suggested I'd prefer replacing Santander's production with something proven. Why go ballistic on me for my opinion?

Because one of the main reasons to deal Santander is to open up RF for Kjerstad or Cowser.   Signing a FA to replace Cowser is the opposite of what they should do.  I hardly went ballistic on you.