Mateo Noise

[CP0861]

15 hours ago, Roll Tide said:

 

 

I believe they have this right! I believe Gunner is a Plus defender at SS but a Plus Plus at 3B, and Ortiz is a Plus Plus defender at SS.

 

https://www.mlb.com/news/roundtable-what-makes-gunnar-henderson-the-top-prospect

I've always felt this way about Gunnar. He's certainly capable of being a good SS, but to me, he's a 3b. I felt the same way about Manny.

[RZNJ]

2 minutes ago, CP0861 said:

I've always felt this way about Gunnar. He's certainly capable of being a good SS, but to me, he's a 3b. I felt the same way about Manny.

If Gunnar had played all season at SS he would have been deserving, and probably have won the gold glove.  He’s not capable of being a good SS.  He IS a very good SS.

[terpoh]

Just now, RZNJ said:

If Gunnar had played all season at SS he would have been deserving, and probably have won the gold glove.  He’s not capable of being a good SS.  He IS a very good SS.

It seems like a lot of people sleep on Gunnar's defense at SS. He is elite and should be locked in at SS until proven otherwise. He was amazing defensively when he took over the position full time. 

[Roll Tide]

11 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

If Gunnar had played all season at SS he would have been deserving, and probably have won the gold glove.  He’s not capable of being a good SS.  He IS a very good SS.

Sure …we are privileged to have more than one potential elite defender. It comes down to what alignment is  best for the team.

[wildbillhiccup]

1 minute ago, RZNJ said:

If Gunnar had played all season at SS he would have been deserving, and probably have won the gold glove.  He’s not capable of being a good SS.  He IS a very good SS.

So far Gunnar has  played 108 games at 3B and 90 at SS (so roughly the same) and he has a slightly higher fielding % at 3B. Given the other young SS'  that we have in the pipeline, why not just let him settle in and be a very good 3B?  It's not like he's blocking anyone notable at 3B, like he might potentially be doing at SS. 

[wildbillhiccup]

23 minutes ago, terpoh said:

It seems like a lot of people sleep on Gunnar's defense at SS. He is elite and should be locked in at SS until proven otherwise. He was amazing defensively when he took over the position full time. 

No one's sleeping on it, it's just that he's every bit as good of a defender at 3B and we have multiple SS prospects waiting in the wings. If the front office feels that SS will be the best defensive position for players like Ortiz and Holliday wouldn't it make sense to primarily play Gunnar at 3B? Especially for Holliday if his bat carries over to the majors like we expect it will. 

[CP0861]

34 minutes ago, terpoh said:

It seems like a lot of people sleep on Gunnar's defense at SS. He is elite and should be locked in at SS until proven otherwise. He was amazing defensively when he took over the position full time. 

If he's elite at SS, all of that translates to 3b also. Especially factoring in his size. He's absolutely built for 3b. If you have another plus option at SS (Ortiz? Holliday?), moving him makes sense and would create a lockdown left side. I haven't seen Ortiz and Holliday play...sounds like Ortiz is hopefully the real deal, but I dunno.

If you want him at SS for now, I wouldn't disagree, but long term....how many 6'3" 225 lb shortstops can you think of in their 30's? Historically, how many gold glovers can you think of that big besides Cal (who won 2 in 15  years)?

Edited January 9 by CP0861

[RZNJ]

59 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

So far Gunnar has  played 108 games at 3B and 90 at SS (so roughly the same) and he has a slightly higher fielding % at 3B. Given the other young SS'  that we have in the pipeline, why not just let him settle in and be a very good 3B?  It's not like he's blocking anyone notable at 3B, like he might potentially be doing at SS. 

Because maybe Westburg (3B), Henderson (SS), Holliday (2B) is our best combination offensively and defensively.  Maybe.  I’m not saying it is.  Are you sure there is a better combination with Henderson at 3B?

Or maybe Mayo (3B), Henderson (SS), Holliday (2B) is best.  Maybe the best combination has Holliday or Ortiz at SS.   It’s not so clear cut.

[RZNJ]

55 minutes ago, CP0861 said:

If he's elite at SS, all of that translates to 3b also. Especially factoring in his size. He's absolutely built for 3b. If you have another plus option at SS (Ortiz? Holliday?), moving him makes sense and would create a lockdown left side. I haven't seen Ortiz and Holliday play...sounds like Ortiz is hopefully the real deal, but I dunno.

If you want him at SS for now, I wouldn't disagree, but long term....how many 6'3" 225 lb shortstops can you think of in their 30's? Historically, how many gold glovers can you think of that big besides Cal (who won 2 in 15  years)?

Why does it matter what position Henderson plays in his 30’s?   He’s 22.

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, terpoh said:

It seems like a lot of people sleep on Gunnar's defense at SS. He is elite and should be locked in at SS until proven otherwise. He was amazing defensively when he took over the position full time. 

Gunnar was much better than expected, but let's off on the "elite" talk defensively. He was worth 0 OAA at both SS and 3B and was worth +1 run value between SS and 3B. 

Do I think Gunnar can be an effective defensive major league shortstop, yes I do, because he showed that last year, but let's not go overboard on him. to me, despite a lesser arm, Ortiz is the best defensive shortstop available to the Orioles right now. 

If the Orioles decide he's major league ready, he should start at SS with Gunnar moving over to 3B. Saying that, I still like Mayo's bat and think his defense at 3B will be good enough so maybe a Mato, Henderson, Ortiz infield would be good if Westburg is moved in trade.

But side by side, the better defensive infield has Ortiz at SS and Gunnar at 3B.

[RZNJ]

9 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Gunnar was much better than expected, but let's off on the "elite" talk defensively. He was worth 0 OAA at both SS and 3B and was worth +1 run value between SS and 3B. 

Do I think Gunnar can be an effective defensive major league shortstop, yes I do, because he showed that last year, but let's not go overboard on him. to me, despite a lesser arm, Ortiz is the best defensive shortstop available to the Orioles right now. 

If the Orioles decide he's major league ready, he should start at SS with Gunnar moving over to 3B. Saying that, I still like Mayo's bat and think his defense at 3B will be good enough so maybe a Mato, Henderson, Ortiz infield would be good if Westburg is moved in trade.

But side by side, the better defensive infield has Ortiz at SS and Gunnar at 3B.

Volpe won the GG with a DRS of 15 and and a OAA of 1 in 1346 innings at SS.   In less than 600 innings at SS Henderson had a DRS of 10 and a OAA of 0.    If you put weight in DRS and UZR/150 then Henderson was really, really good.   If you go with OAA, nothing special.   

[Frobby]

34 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Gunnar was much better than expected, but let's off on the "elite" talk defensively. He was worth 0 OAA at both SS and 3B and was worth +1 run value between SS and 3B. 

Do I think Gunnar can be an effective defensive major league shortstop, yes I do, because he showed that last year, but let's not go overboard on him. to me, despite a lesser arm, Ortiz is the best defensive shortstop available to the Orioles right now. 

If the Orioles decide he's major league ready, he should start at SS with Gunnar moving over to 3B. Saying that, I still like Mayo's bat and think his defense at 3B will be good enough so maybe a Mato, Henderson, Ortiz infield would be good if Westburg is moved in trade.

But side by side, the better defensive infield has Ortiz at SS and Gunnar at 3B.

I believe it’s probably correct that Ortiz has the defensive edge over Gunnar at SS, and if Ortiz’s offense turns out solid at the major league level, I’d prefer him to be the SS.   

However, while I like OAA, I don’t look exclusively at that to judge defense.  Gunnar was at +7.4 UZR, +10 Rdrs, +9 Rtot as a SS last year.  His 13.9 UZR/150 was by far the best of any SS with 500+ innings 7.3 was 2nd).  His 21 Rdrs/yr and 18 Rtot/yr also also were best.   So, all of those indicators do suggest he was elite at SS.   My feeling is that if he wasn’t “elite” (whatever that means), he was pretty darned close.

Fun fact about Gunnar: he turned more unassisted DPs (13) than any other SS in MLB, despite playing less than half the games there.   I’m not saying that’s a measure of how good his defense was, it’s literally just a fun fact.   And, it probably shows that he prefers to execute DPs that way when he can, rather than feeding the 2B, moreso than other shortstops.  
 

[tampajon]

1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

Because maybe Westburg (3B), Henderson (SS), Holliday (2B) is our best combination offensively and defensively.  Maybe.  I’m not saying it is.  Are you sure there is a better combination with Henderson at 3B?

Or maybe Mayo (3B), Henderson (SS), Holliday (2B) is best.  Maybe the best combination has Holliday or Ortiz at SS.   It’s not so clear cut.

I like those three but I would put Henderson (3B), Holliday (SS) and Westburg (2B) so we can take advantage of Henderson's arm and Holliday's athleticism. 

[RZNJ]

1 minute ago, tampajon said:

I like those three but I would put Henderson (3B), Holliday (SS) and Westburg (2B) so we can take advantage of Henderson's arm and Holliday's athleticism. 

That works too but how about Mayos arm at 3B, Hendersons arm and athleticism at SS and Hollidays athleticism at 2B?   There are a lot of right answers and not too many wrong ones.

[CP0861]

1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

Why does it matter what position Henderson plays in his 30’s?   He’s 22.

I know he's 22, and that's why I also said I wouldn't have any issue with him playing SS for now.

However, his size is uncommon for the position - not unheard of, but uncommon. I realize that he's obviously shown that he can handle the position (for now) but if they have comparable defensive alternatives for SS (which I think we are all hoping that they do in Ortiz and/or Holliday), and if Henderson is likely to be moved in the future, my opinion/preference would be to move him now (or as soon as possible) and establish the left side as it will hopefully remain for years to come. IMO, Gunnar is the best 3b option in the organization....so put him there.

Edited January 9 by CP0861