Help me understand - bullpen usage

[kidrock]

I have no facts to back this up, so this could be a very ignorant statement.

I feel like the starters are throwing more innings than I have ever seen in my 20 years watching this team.  Almost every night, guys are lasting until the 5th or so.  I know that is different than the past, but they seem to be doing well on the whole with decent consistency.
 

My question is: how is it possible to not overwork the pen.  Even if guys are going 5-6 innings, which seems pretty good for today’s day and age, you still work the heck out of the pen.  Then the pen guys come in and get hurt easily due to over use.  
 

Am I just incorrect?  Are my assumptions poor?  I just don’t understand how, even if each starter consistently goes 5-6, the bullpen doesn’t get overworked into oblivion each night.

[wildcard]

The addition of Bradish and Means moves Irvin and Suarez to the pen.   And Wells will probably be added to the pen in a couple of weeks.     All three of these  pitchers add length to the pen.    Instead on using three or four relievers in a game they can use one if that is what Hyde decided to do.

[Aristotelian]

You are right, it's a challenge. We do have 8 guys to play with, so on a given night you are hopefully resting the majority of guys. They have a system for determining who is available. These days it is probably an app. Hyde will then use any guy that the system has cleared to go. If they don't have enough guys you option the tired guys and bring up fresh arms from the taxi squad.

I believe they should allow 12 player/14 pitcher rosters to reduce wear and tear, but the position players in MLBPA probably don't like that and MLB hates pitching changes 

[Frobby]

Your impression that the O’s should starters are throwing more innings than at any time in the last 20 years is probably wrong.  In 2004, the league averaged 5.9 IP/start and the O’s were at 5.6.   This year, the league is at 5.2 and the O’s are at 5.6.   So, the O’s are in the same spot as they were 20 years ago, but the league has dropped by 0.7 IP per start so the current O’s are much improved relative to the league.  I’m not going to spend the time looking up every year between 2004 and 2024, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the O’s were above 5.6 a couple of times back when the league average was above that.  

What has changed is that the O’s are a contender and play competitive games almost every night.  You can’t just turn a game over to Joe Scrub in the 5th/6th inning knowing that the game is hopeless.  So, that places more pressure on the relievers who are actually good to bear the brunt of the load, and causes managers to go to their best guys even when it’s pretty obvious that they could use an extra day off.  
 

Edited April 30 by Frobby

[glenn__davis]

BTW I've been looking for somewhere to ask this lately regarding the "3 batter minimum" rule.

Both Geoff Arnold and Kevin Brown recently mentioned that an Orioles reliever needed to face 1 or 2 more hitters to start an inning after that reliever had closed the previous inning.  It was my understanding that that rule only applied within the same inning - that is, if a reliever only faces one batter but that ends the inning, then he can be replaced.  Is that not correct?

[glenn__davis]

Nevermind, I just looked it up myself and my recollection was correct, the 3 batter rule does not apply if the reliever finished the previous inning.  Kind of surprised that both Arnold and Brown got that wrong.

[Frobby]

1 minute ago, glenn__davis said:

BTW I've been looking for somewhere to ask this lately regarding the "3 batter minimum" rule.

Both Geoff Arnold and Kevin Brown recently mentioned that an Orioles reliever needed to face 1 or 2 more hitters to start an inning after that reliever had closed the previous inning.  It was my understanding that that rule only applied within the same inning - that is, if a reliever only faces one batter but that ends the inning, then he can be replaced.  Is that not correct?

That’s correct.  But, if that reliever who ended an inning on one batter was still in the game the following inning, he’d have to pitch to two more batters.  

[glenn__davis]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

That’s correct.  But, if that reliever who ended an inning on one batter was still in the game the following inning, he’d have to pitch to two more batters.  

Ah, that makes sense.  Thanks!

[Mooreisbetter27]

2 minutes ago, glenn__davis said:

Nevermind, I just looked it up myself and my recollection was correct, the 3 batter rule does not apply if the reliever finished the previous inning.  Kind of surprised that both Arnold and Brown got that wrong.

In the game chat someone told Roy to text Jim and tell him to fix KB.  Roy responded that he did.  

[RZNJ]

Correct.  Mike Baumann pitched 1/3 of an inning facing one batter when he got the last out of the 8th on April 20 against KC.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

2 minutes ago, glenn__davis said:

Nevermind, I just looked it up myself and my recollection was correct, the 3 batter rule does not apply if the reliever finished the previous inning.  Kind of surprised that both Arnold and Brown got that wrong.

Thanks. I was wondering about that too when I heard that on the broadcast and was wondering if the rule changed about relievers who close an inning, but haven't faced three batters.

@Frobbymakes a good point that this Orioles team is usually in competitive games so Hyde is going to be very deliberate with his pitching changes. The Orioles of the 2000's were often getting their brains beat in so it's easier to let a mop up pitcher go 2 or 3 innings.

[Malike]

It's also a bit different having very few guys with options so if you lean hard on a guy, and he has options you can send him down for a fresh arm for a bit. The shuttle bus is much smaller this year and we have a bunch of guys who would be claimed if they were DFA'd. (Not Ramirez).

[terpoh]

1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

Correct.  Mike Baumann pitched 1/3 of an inning facing one batter when he got the last out of the 8th on April 20 against KC.

Yes- but KB comment was referring to a pitcher who came back in for the following inning after retiring one batter to end the previous inning. I think thats the difference. They can be pulled with less than 3 batter minimum between innings but if they come back out for the following inning they would still have to fulfill the 3 batter minimum.

[RZNJ]

26 minutes ago, terpoh said:

Yes- but KB comment was referring to a pitcher who came back in for the following inning after retiring one batter to end the previous inning. I think thats the difference. They can be pulled with less than 3 batter minimum between innings but if they come back out for the following inning they would still have to fulfill the 3 batter minimum.

I was responding to this.

“that is, if a reliever only faces one batter but that ends the inning, then he can be replaced.  Is that not correct?“

[SteveA]

8 hours ago, Frobby said:

Your impression that the O’s should starters are throwing more innings than at any time in the last 20 years is probably wrong.  In 2004, the league averaged 5.9 IP/start and the O’s were at 5.6.   This year, the league is at 5.2 and the O’s are at 5.6.   So, the O’s are in the same spot as they were 20 years ago, but the league has dropped by 0.7 IP per start so the current O’s are much improved relative to the league.  I’m not going to spend the time looking up every year between 2004 and 2024, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the O’s were above 5.6 a couple of times back when the league average was above that.  

What has changed is that the O’s are a contender and play competitive games almost every night.  You can’t just turn a game over to Joe Scrub in the 5th/6th inning knowing that the game is hopeless.  So, that places more pressure on the relievers who are actually good to bear the brunt of the load, and causes managers to go to their best guys even when it’s pretty obvious that they could use an extra day off.  
 

To your point...  Mike Baumann and Yohan Ramirez have combined to throw 2.2 innings in the last 10 days.

So really, we pretty much have a 6 man bullpen, because those guys are rarely ever going to pitch, and almost certainly not in close games.

So yeah, that's a problem.   It's possible that those 2 could both be replaced by some combination of Suarez, Irvin, and Wells in the pen as the season goes on.    Suddenly you have have a lot more length in the pen as well as guys who you think (hope) can perform adequately in closer games.