This series is an example of why you don’t trade any of Holliday, Basallo, or Mayo, unless is for an ACE

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

You don't acknowledge a discernible difference in the consistent quality this season of Grayson and Burnes?

You are mistaking consistency with one being better than the other.  Those are 2 completely different things.

[Just Regular]

5 minutes ago, mddisney said:

I would like another thread to project the ideal lineup in 2025-2026.  That will pretty clearly tell you who we have space for and who we do not.  The latter is optimal to trade.  

I actually think this is fairly clear, pending the end game of constraining talent to maximize $$$/WAR efficiency* like the MLBPA is so fond of.

C Adley, 1B Mayo, 2B Holliday, SS Gunnar, 3B Westburg, LF Cowser, CF Bradfield, RF Kjerstad, DH Basallo

I think there's a tier drop from that first string to Stowers/Beavers/Norby, and Bradfield today is some general faith in Elias' draft track record.    He doesn't have to hit much to bat 9th if the glove is as dreamed on.   2026 Hyde could have Offense/Defense type platoon with him and Beavers.

*also because The Ryans and Jorge Mateo are having very fine seasons helping a team play .600+ ball over a 2-year span.

[Bemorewins]

20 minutes ago, DirtyBird said:

Command is a pretty significant part of pitching ability

That is a fact that I acknowledge. This right now is what separates a true #1 like Burnes from a #2/3 like Grayson.

And to be fair to Grayson, he hasn't even made 30 Big League starts and is 5 years younger than Burnes.

However, the consistency that Burnes gives you is important to raising the floor of your team and your postseason chances IMO. That is why I am in favor of acquiring another ace type for the stretch run and for next season. I don't think it's realistic/reasonable right now to expect Grayson to anchor the top of the rotation of a World Series winner especially when talking about this "all homegrown notion" where Kremer/Irvin/Povich/McDermott slot in behind him.

[RZNJ]

7 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Mayo at first, RF or DH

Holliday is either second or SS.

Gunnar is either SS or third.

Westburg is either 3rd or 2nd.

Basallo is back up C, first and DH.

Adley C or DH.

Cowser is in the OF….one of Stowers and/or Kjerstad joins him.

Norby in a UTI role.

Now, obviously we aren’t likely to use a totally homegrown lineup but that is what they are looking at.

CF is a question mark. 

The fact that you can even entertain the thought that within 2 years that Gunnar Henderson could even POSSIBLY slide over to 3B so Jackson Holliday can be the SS shows just how out of touch with reality you are and how you can’t get over the 1:1, drafted as a SS, not eventually being the SS.  LOL.  Get over it already!   
 

Gunnar Henderson is the Oriole SS for the next 4+ years.  5 DRS.  7 OAA.   He’s really, really, good.   He’s a burgeoning superstar, face of the franchise, and he’s not only the best player, he’s the best friggin SS we have in the entire organization.  

[Bemorewins]

28 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

You can’t keep trying for post of the year. You already have that locked down. 

Moving on… Verlander as a trade example of when the Astros got him should never really be referred to because that was a once in MLB history type of move. Seriously. Not being hard on anyone. 

We do need a game 3 SP. Could that be a rental?  Ideally it would be a LH SP. We gotta see what’s available at the deadline, but that could be Snell or Montgomery. I don’t think they’d cost one of the big 3. Cease or Eovaldi could be available too. 

We have this fixation as fans that we have to plug our holes with the best option in MLB. You can’t always get Robbie Alomar for your need at 2nd Base. Just because we lost a guy that throws 103 doesn’t mean we need a guy that throws 103. Just because we lost Bradish doesn’t mean we turn Jesus Luzardo into and Ace. He’s not. 

Our needs in order of importance… Game 3 SP, High End High Leverage reliever, Set up man

I don't think that sort of mentality really exists on this message board. Most posters that I read are suggesting the cheaper options and have fully bought into the concept of the O's play low budget ball.

I may not agree with that. But it is what it is.

I do agree with your needs assessment (though it could be a game 2 or game 3 starter).

Also, with regards all of the starting pitchers that you mentioned, I would rather have Logan Webb or even Sonny Gray for that matter because they solve a problem for this season and next and possibly beyond. If we have to give up Mayo/Basallo+ for Logan Webb, I am all for that. I think at this point we should be open/exploring/pursuing how to keep Santander after this season. And if you do that makes one of those guys expendable (which I am okay). For the 3/4 years we can retain Santander, that gives Elias/Sig time to find you next higher level prospects like Mayo/Basallo AND it keeps the floor of the MLB team higher (which matters most to me at this point considering our World Series potential).

[Bemorewins]

15 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

You are mistaking consistency with one being better than the other.  Those are 2 completely different things.

Maybe I should be saying reliability?

Burnes can be more relied upon to give you a consistent quality/good start. And that consistency is do to the quality of command IMO. 

[e16bball]

1 hour ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Our needs in order of importance… Game 3 SP, High End High Leverage reliever, Set up man

I don’t think I agree with this ranking.

I would be much more comfortable with some combination of the two hottest hands out of Irvin, Kremer, Suarez, and Povich handling the first 6 innings of a few Game 3s than I am with hoping we catch Kimbrel, Cano, and Perez/Akin all having a good fortnight in October.

If I had some certainty that Coulombe would be back and able to pitch like himself, that might be different. But barring that, there’s too much unpredictability in the back end. Injecting a high-end high-leverage reliever would solidify that group tremendously.

We can cobble together a playoff rotation with what we have. The Rangers got 11 out of 17 postseason starts from Eovaldi/Montgomery, and presumably we would do something similar with Burnes/Rodriguez. The rest of their games were split between an Andrew Heaney/Dane Dunning stack (which beat Bradish in Game 1 against us) and three pretty dreadful short efforts from Max Scherzer. Two legit starters, with three or four other guys mixing in to hold it together as best they can.

A bullpen ace, though, is going to be involved in pretty much every close game throughout the playoffs. The Rangers used Jose Leclerc in 13 of their 17 postseason games — the only games he didn’t pitch in were 3 losing blowouts and (for some odd reason) the WS clinching game. He threw more playoff innings for them than anyone but the two primary SPs. 

The way this team is set up, I think that’s the role they most need to look to fill. The top two SPs will carry a lot of the weight at the beginning of games, and there’s a lot of multi-inning depth behind them — but they really could use a guy that steps up and takes the ball at the end of the game, night after night.

[OnlyOneOriole]

On 6/20/2024 at 5:20 PM, sportsfan8703 said:

An elite offense is more valuable than a closer in the regular season. It’s also more valuable than a singular #2-#5 regular season pitcher. Meaning Luzardo, Cease, or Mason Miller. 

The postseason is a crap shoot. If it wasn’t the Dodgers would’ve won the last 5 years. So for the postseason, just give me the hot arms or hot bats that are available. 

Baseball is just like hockey in that many many times, the best teams throughout the season don't win the championship.   Football and basketball are the opposite.   The best teams all year almost always win the championship or at least make the championship game/series.

Hockey if you get a hot goalie?   He can carry you all the way even if the overall team has lesser talent.  Baseball if you get some hot pitching or hitting?  Same thing.  Both sports are very momo driven and kind of random when that momo shows up. 

As for trading any of those 3?  I think you have to be open to anything but agree that it would take a major major haul to trade one.  If I had to pick one it would be JH and that is just because I don't think he will live up to the hype.   I know that most of the world doesn't agree but I just don't see elite athleticism in him.  Hope I am wrong but I think he is a strong sell high candidate. 

[RZNJ]

12 minutes ago, e16bball said:

I don’t think I agree with this ranking.

I would be much more comfortable with some combination of the two hottest hands out of Irvin, Kremer, Suarez, and Povich handling the first 6 innings of a few Game 3s than I am with hoping we catch Kimbrel, Cano, and Perez/Akin all having a good fortnight in October.

If I had some certainty that Coulombe would be back and able to pitch like himself, that might be different. But barring that, there’s too much unpredictability in the back end. Injecting a high-end high-leverage reliever would solidify that group tremendously.

We can cobble together a playoff rotation with what we have. The Rangers got 11 out of 17 postseason starts from Eovaldi/Montgomery, and presumably we would do something similar with Burnes/Rodriguez. The rest of their games were split between an Andrew Heaney/Dane Dunning stack (which beat Bradish in Game 1 against us) and three pretty dreadful short efforts from Max Scherzer. Two legit starters, with three or four other guys mixing in to hold it together as best they can.

A bullpen ace, though, is going to be involved in pretty much every close game throughout the playoffs. The Rangers used Jose Leclerc in 13 of their 17 postseason games — the only games he didn’t pitch in were 3 losing blowouts and (for some odd reason) the WS clinching game. He threw more playoff innings for them than anyone but the two primary SPs. 

The way this team is set up, I think that’s the role they most need to look to fill. The top two SPs will carry a lot of the weight at the beginning of games, and there’s a lot of multi-inning depth behind them — but they really could use a guy that steps up and takes the ball at the end of the game, night after night.

Not that I disagree with your post but think of the irony of needing a dominant bullpen arm and the reread the part about JOSE LECLERC!

[Uli2001]

39 minutes ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

Baseball is just like hockey in that many many times, the best teams throughout the season don't win the championship.   Football and basketball are the opposite.   The best teams all year almost always win the championship or at least make the championship game/series.

Hockey if you get a hot goalie?   He can carry you all the way even if the overall team has lesser talent.  Baseball if you get some hot pitching or hitting?  Same thing.  Both sports are very momo driven and kind of random when that momo shows up.

This is an interesting topic. Yes, for baseball, and this is why, honestly, there was no playoffs in the past. You had to win the pennant, i.e., you had to have the best regular-season record in your league, to play in the World Series. In international Soccer, to win a league championship you have to have the best record, period (no playoffs).

You may be right about the NBA (I used to follow it, but no longer), but I disagree regarding the NFL. It's a one-game playoff and many times the best regular season-record loses.

[OnlyOneOriole]

1 minute ago, Uli2001 said:

This is an interesting topic. Yes, for baseball, and this is why, honestly, there was no playoffs in the past. You had to win the pennant, i.e., you had to have the best regular-season record in your league, to play in the World Series. In international Soccer, to win a league championship you have to have the best record, period (no playoffs).

You may be right about the NBA (I used to follow it, but no longer), but I disagree regarding the NFL. It's a one-game playoff and many times the best regular season-record loses.

Agree with most of that but look at the last 20 Super Bowl participants and winners.  Almost all were either the best or one of the best teams in the regular season.

I would say the Giants beating the Patriots and the Saints beating the Colts being 2 winning teams that were not one of the best teams all year, although the teams that they beat....the Pats and Colts....were the best teams during the regular season that year and did make the Super Bowl.

Football is much less reliant on random luck and momo.  Same with basketball.  Especially in a 7 game series.  Usually the best teams win just by overwhelming you with talent.  Hockey a lot of randomness and getting hot is thrown in.   A lucky deflection or a hot goalie for example.  Same with baseball. 

[Philip]

On 6/21/2024 at 6:28 AM, Aristotelian said:

The Rangers got Scherzer for Luisangel Acuna. Kjerstad is ranked all of two spots behind Mayo in the MLB top 100. I don't see why Kjerstad can't get us a good pitcher. 

Scherzer was 38…and he’s been on the IL most of the time since then. When people suggest trading for Verlander, I wish they’d consider this.

[OnlyOneOriole]

34 minutes ago, Philip said:

Scherzer was 38…and he’s been on the IL most of the time since then. When people suggest trading for Verlander, I wish they’d consider this.

Agree.

[Bemorewins]

3 hours ago, e16bball said:

I don’t think I agree with this ranking.

I would be much more comfortable with some combination of the two hottest hands out of Irvin, Kremer, Suarez, and Povich handling the first 6 innings of a few Game 3s than I am with hoping we catch Kimbrel, Cano, and Perez/Akin all having a good fortnight in October.

If I had some certainty that Coulombe would be back and able to pitch like himself, that might be different. But barring that, there’s too much unpredictability in the back end. Injecting a high-end high-leverage reliever would solidify that group tremendously.

We can cobble together a playoff rotation with what we have. The Rangers got 11 out of 17 postseason starts from Eovaldi/Montgomery, and presumably we would do something similar with Burnes/Rodriguez. The rest of their games were split between an Andrew Heaney/Dane Dunning stack (which beat Bradish in Game 1 against us) and three pretty dreadful short efforts from Max Scherzer. Two legit starters, with three or four other guys mixing in to hold it together as best they can.

A bullpen ace, though, is going to be involved in pretty much every close game throughout the playoffs. The Rangers used Jose Leclerc in 13 of their 17 postseason games — the only games he didn’t pitch in were 3 losing blowouts and (for some odd reason) the WS clinching game. He threw more playoff innings for them than anyone but the two primary SPs. 

The way this team is set up, I think that’s the role they most need to look to fill. The top two SPs will carry a lot of the weight at the beginning of games, and there’s a lot of multi-inning depth behind them — but they really could use a guy that steps up and takes the ball at the end of the game, night after night.

If you agree with most people that the Rangers "beat the odds" as a longshot, then it does not seem wise to try to mimic their route to success. It would be better to acquire the requisite talent than to trust in "cobbling" things together. The rest of the team is too good to go with that kind of philosophy/roster construction strategy.

The Rangers won 90 games and snuck into the postseason as a Wild Card (only two games ahead of Seattle). It made sense for them to take that approach because going into the postseason their odds weren't particularly high. We are coming off of a 101 win season and getting swept in the first round. We should have a different aim/focus than the 23' Rangers had entering October.

[RZNJ]

The Cardinals swept us.  The Astros are in position to sweep us.  It happens.  Our #2 got beat up.  Our #1 got beat.  It happens.   In a short series …….  well you know the rest.   That’s why you do what you can to improve but you don’t trade too much future value to increase your lottery odds.