Trembley Suspended

[RShack]

Steve A recently posted a baseball quiz which included the following question about a very similar play, and it sounds like the same rule may apply.

Q. Runner on first, stealing on the pitch. The batter hits a ground ball to the shortstop, who throws to second, but the runner is safe at second. The second baseman then tries to throw out the batter running to first base, but the ball gets by the first baseman and goes into the dugout, out of play. What is the correct ruling?

A. The runner going to second base scores and the batter is awarded second.

In this case the runner "going to" 2B, was called safe, then awarded 2 bases on the out-of-bounds throw. Depending on who you listen to, Reimold was either already on 2B or rounding 2b when the CF'er made the throw. Either way, it seems he should have been award 2 bases on the out-of-bounds throw and scored.

No, the question clearly states that the runner was safe at 2B, he was not "going to" 2B. So, he gets 2 bases from there and scores.

In Reimold's case, the determining factor is whether Reimold had reached 2B when the OF'er threw the ball. There is no doubt about that being what matters. The only doubt is about where he actually was.

[Skeletor]

No, the question clearly states that the runner was safe at 2B, he was not "going to" 2B. So, he gets 2 bases from there and scores.

In Reimold's case, the determining factor is whether Reimold had reached 2B when the OF'er threw the ball. There is no doubt about that being what matters. The only doubt is about where he actually was.

This is wrong.

[El Gordo]

No, the question clearly states that the runner was safe at 2B, he was not "going to" 2B. So, he gets 2 bases from there and scores.

In Reimold's case, the determining factor is whether Reimold had reached 2B when the OF'er threw the ball. There is no doubt about that being what matters. The only doubt is about where he actually was.

I don't know about you, but after reading the rule quoted above, there is a great deal of doubt.

[ledzepp8]

This is wrong.

I think what you bolded is still apart of the approved ruling though. It is in regards to the runner at first holding up halfway on the play.

[Skeletor]

I think what you bolded is still apart of the approved ruling though. It is in regards to the runner at first holding up halfway on the play.

I don't think so. This is the rule they're expanding on.

(g) Two bases when, with no spectators on the playing field, a thrown ball goes into the stands, or into a bench (whether or not the ball rebounds into the field), or over or under or through a field fence, or on a slanting part of the screen above the backstop, or remains in the meshes of a wire screen protecting spectators. The ball is dead. When such wild throw is the first play by an infielder, the umpire, in awarding such bases, shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the ball was pitched; in all other cases the umpire shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the wild throw was made;

APPROVED RULING: If all runners, including the batter-runner, have advanced at least one base when an infielder makes a wild throw on the first play after the pitch, the award shall be governed by the position of the runners when the wild throw was made.

[RShack]

This is wrong.

I don't know about you, but after reading the rule quoted above, there is a great deal of doubt.

The rule quoted above by Russ is just one portion of 7.05(g), not the whole rule. It is a comment about something quite specific: what happens when the runner holds up between 1st and 2nd (waiting to see if the ball is caught), and the batter rounds 1B... so, you've got 2 runners between 1st and 2nd. The reason for that specific comment about the rule is that you can't give 3B to two runners at once.

To get it right, you have to look at the whole rule, not just selected special-case parts of it. If Reimold was between 1st and 2nd, then he's not to 2B yet, in which case he winds up on 3B. That is true no matter which scenario you assume about the batter. Similarly, if he's past 2B, then the quoted comment about the rule does not apply because you don't have 2 runners between the same 2 bases, in which case Reimold scores. So, either way you look at it, if Reimold had not reached 2B when the OF'er threw the ball, he's on 3rd, and if he had reached 2B, he scores. Either way, the outcome for Reimold is dependent on where he was when the OF'er threw the ball, and the subset of the rule quoted by Russ makes no difference in the correct outcome.

[Skeletor]

The rule quoted above is just one portion of 7.05(g), not the whole rule. It is a comment about something quite specific: what happens when the runner holds up between 1st and 2nd (waiting to see if the ball is caught), and the batter rounds 1B... so, you've got 2 runners between 1st and 2nd. The reason for that specific comment about the rule is that you can't give 3B to two runners at once.

To get it right, you have to look at the whole rule, not just selected special-case parts of it. If Reimold was between 1st and 2nd, then he's not to 2B yet, in which case he winds up on 3B. That is true no matter which scenario you assume about the batter. Similarly, if he's past 2B, then the quoted comment about the rule does not apply because you don't have 2 runners between the same 2 bases, in which case Reimold scores. So, either way you look at it, if Reimold had not reached 2B when the OF'er threw the ball, he's on 3rd, and if he had reached 2B, he scores. Either way, the outcome for Reimold is dependent on where he was when the OF'er threw the ball.

I did read the whole rule. All runners, including the batter, have to have advance at least one base for the runners to be advanced two bases from the time of the throw.

[El Gordo]

The rule quoted above is just one portion of 7.05(g), not the whole rule. It is a comment about something quite specific: what happens when the runner holds up between 1st and 2nd (waiting to see if the ball is caught), and the batter rounds 1B... so, you've got 2 runners between 1st and 2nd. The reason for that rule is that you can't give them both 3B.

To get it right, you have to look at the whole rule, not just selected special-case parts of it. If Reimold was between 1st and 2nd, then he's not to 2B yet, in which case he winds up on 3B. That is true no matter which scenario you assume about the batter. Similarly, if he's past 2B, then the quoted rule does not apply because you don't have 2 runners between the same 2 bases, in which case Reimold scores. So, either way you look at it, if Reimold had not reached 2B when the OF'er threw the ball, he's on 3rd, and he had reached 2B, he scores. Either way, the outcome for Reimold is dependent on where he was when the OF'er threw the ball.

I think you may be right about this. I think this is the pertinent part of the rule, in all other cases the umpire shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the wild throw was made;. The other part cited refers to the specific situation where 2 runners are between the same two bases. FWIW I reviewed the play and when the thorw from the CF passed over 2B Reimold was beyond 2B and Scott had rounded 1B and was several steps toward 2B. In all likelyhood Scott had reached 1B by the time of the throw.

[Skeletor]

I think you're reading the ruling as part of the special case when it really is it's own separate statement. Imagine a bullet in front of every sentence past the Approved ruling sentence.

Rule 7.05(g) Comment: In certain circumstances it is impossible to award a runner two bases. Example: Runner on first. Batter hits fly to short right. Runner holds up between first and second and batter comes around first and pulls up behind him. Ball falls safely. Outfielder, in throwing to first, throws ball into stand.

APPROVED RULING: Since no runner, when the ball is dead, may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled, the runner originally on first base goes to third base and the batter is held at second base.

The term “when the wild throw was made” means when the throw actually left the player’s hand and not when the thrown ball hit the ground, passes a receiving fielder or goes out of play into the stands.

The position of the batter-runner at the time the wild throw left the thrower’s hand is the key in deciding the award of bases. If the batter-runner has not reached first base, the award is two bases at the time the pitch was made for all runners. The decision as to whether the batter-runner has reached first base before the throw is a judgment call.

If an unusual play arises where a first throw by an infielder goes into stands or dugout but the batter did not become a runner (such as catcher throwing ball into stands in attempt to get runner from third trying to score on passed ball or wild pitch) award of two bases shall be from the position of the runners at the time of the throw. (For the purpose of Rule 7.05 (g) a catcher is considered an infielder.)

PLAY. Runner on first base, batter hits a ball to the shortstop, who throws to second base too late to get runner at second, and second baseman throws toward first base after batter has crossed first base.

[El Gordo]

I did read the whole rule. All runners, including the batter, have to have advance at least one base for the runners to be advanced two bases from the time of the throw.

How about posting the whole rule, so we can read it and try to figure out what it means for ourselves, or at least give us a link to it:)

[Skeletor]

Note that there not continuous sentences. They're not related.

[Skeletor]

How about posting the whole rule, so we can read it and try to figure out what it means for ourselves, or at least give us a link to it:)

I gave a link to it on the previous page. Heres the whole rule.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/runner_7.jsp

7.05

Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advance --

(a) To home base, scoring a run, if a fair ball goes out of the playing field in flight and he touched all bases legally; or if a fair ball which, in the umpire’s judgment, would have gone out of the playing field in flight, is deflected by the act of a fielder in throwing his glove, cap, or any article of his apparel;

(b) Three bases, if a fielder deliberately touches a fair ball with his cap, mask or any part of his uniform detached from its proper place on his person. The ball is in play and the batter may advance to home base at his peril;

© Three bases, if a fielder deliberately throws his glove at and touches a fair ball. The ball is in play and the batter may advance to home base at his peril.

(d) Two bases, if a fielder deliberately touches a thrown ball with his cap, mask or any part of his uniform detached from its proper place on his person. The ball is in play;

(e) Two bases, if a fielder deliberately throws his glove at and touches a thrown ball. The ball is in play;

Rules 7.05(b) through 7.05(e) Comment: In applying (b-c-d-e) the umpire must rule that the thrown glove or detached cap or mask has touched the ball. There is no penalty if the ball is not touched.

Under (c-e) this penalty shall not be invoked against a fielder whose glove is carried off his hand by the force of a batted or thrown ball, or when his glove flies off his hand as he makes an obvious effort to make a legitimate catch.

(f) Two bases, if a fair ball bounces or is deflected into the stands outside the first or third base foul lines; or if it goes through or under a field fence, or through or under a scoreboard, or through or under shrubbery or vines on the fence; or if it sticks in such fence, scoreboard, shrubbery or vines;

(g) Two bases when, with no spectators on the playing field, a thrown ball goes into the stands, or into a bench (whether or not the ball rebounds into the field), or over or under or through a field fence, or on a slanting part of the screen above the backstop, or remains in the meshes of a wire screen protecting spectators. The ball is dead. When such wild throw is the first play by an infielder, the umpire, in awarding such bases, shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the ball was pitched; in all other cases the umpire shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the wild throw was made;

APPROVED RULING: If all runners, including the batter-runner, have advanced at least one base when an infielder makes a wild throw on the first play after the pitch, the award shall be governed by the position of the runners when the wild throw was made.

Rule 7.05(g) Comment: In certain circumstances it is impossible to award a runner two bases. Example: Runner on first. Batter hits fly to short right. Runner holds up between first and second and batter comes around first and pulls up behind him. Ball falls safely. Outfielder, in throwing to first, throws ball into stand.

APPROVED RULING: Since no runner, when the ball is dead, may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled, the runner originally on first base goes to third base and the batter is held at second base.

The term “when the wild throw was made” means when the throw actually left the player’s hand and not when the thrown ball hit the ground, passes a receiving fielder or goes out of play into the stands.

The position of the batter-runner at the time the wild throw left the thrower’s hand is the key in deciding the award of bases. If the batter-runner has not reached first base, the award is two bases at the time the pitch was made for all runners. The decision as to whether the batter-runner has reached first base before the throw is a judgment call.

If an unusual play arises where a first throw by an infielder goes into stands or dugout but the batter did not become a runner (such as catcher throwing ball into stands in attempt to get runner from third trying to score on passed ball or wild pitch) award of two bases shall be from the position of the runners at the time of the throw. (For the purpose of Rule 7.05 (g) a catcher is considered an infielder.)

PLAY. Runner on first base, batter hits a ball to the shortstop, who throws to second base too late to get runner at second, and second baseman throws toward first base after batter has crossed first base. Ruling—Runner at second scores. (On this play, only if batter-runner is past first base when throw is made is he awarded third base.)

(h) One base, if a ball, pitched to the batter, or thrown by the pitcher from his position on the pitcher’s plate to a base to catch a runner, goes into a stand or a bench, or over or through a field fence or backstop. The ball is dead;

APPROVED RULING: When a wild pitch or passed ball goes through or by the catcher, or deflects off the catcher, and goes directly into the dugout, stands, above the break, or any area where the ball is dead, the awarding of bases shall be one base. One base shall also be awarded if the pitcher while in contact with the rubber, throws to a base, and the throw goes directly into the stands or into any area where the ball is dead.

If, however, the pitched or thrown ball goes through or by the catcher or through the fielder, and remains on the playing field, and is subsequently kicked or deflected into the dugout, stands or other area where the ball is dead, the awarding of bases shall be two bases from position of runners at the time of the pitch or throw.

(i) One base, if the batter becomes a runner on Ball Four or Strike Three, when the pitch passes the catcher and lodges in the umpire’s mask or paraphernalia.

If the batter becomes a runner on a wild pitch which entitles the runners to advance one base, the batter-runner shall be entitled to first base only.

Rule 7.05(i) Comment: The fact a runner is awarded a base or bases without liability to be put out does not relieve him of the responsibility to touch the base he is awarded and all intervening bases. For example: batter hits a ground ball which an infielder throws into the stands but the batter-runner missed first base. He may be called out on appeal for missing first base after the ball is put in play even though he was “awarded” second base.

If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch, he must retouch his original base even though, because of some ground rule or other rule, he is awarded additional bases. He may retouch while the ball is dead and the award is then made from his original base.

(j) One base, if a fielder deliberately touches a pitched ball with his cap, mask or any part of his uniform detached from its proper place on his person. The ball is in play, and the award is made from the position of the runner at the time the ball was touched.

[ccbird]

I did read the whole rule. All runners, including the batter, have to have advance at least one base for the runners to be advanced two bases from the time of the throw.

So youre telling me with a runner on 1st a batter hits a gapper and trips coming out of the box and isnt' at first yet when the OF releases the throw that the runner on 1st can be a step away from the bag at third and wouldn't score on a ball an out of play because the batter hadn't reached 1st yet?? This would be a case where the runner who is about to round third probably is going to score without the ball going out of play anyway and throwing the ball out of play would actually help the defense. That just doesn't seem right at all. There has to be some discretion here from the umps.

[RShack]

I did read the whole rule. All runners, including the batter, have to have advance at least one base for the runners to be advanced two bases from the time of the throw.

You are down in the weeds about a special case, and using that to over rule the general case. No reason for that here. The outcome for Reimold is determined by where he is when the OF'er makes the throw, and that is true whether the special case applies or not.

[clarence]

Rules that long should be against the rules.