The worst theory in the history of the OH

[Moose Milligan]

I'm sorry, but this has to be discussed.

This argument that all the Orioles care about is Peter Angelos' pockets is downright absurd. I've seen it creep up more and more in recent weeks. It seems almost to be a conspiracy theory of sorts...that the Orioles don't care about winning, that the Orioles don't care about putting a competitive product on the field. All they care about is making money and that's it.

It's ridiculous for a number of reasons:

1. The early years in PA's ownership where we were winners, where OPACY was sold out every night, where our payroll was higher than anyone elses and when we made the playoffs two years in a row.

It's an example of PA's competitiveness and will to win. Yes, finances were different back then but every single Orioles fan LOVED Peter Angelos and what he was bringing to the table when he took ownership.

It's not like he sunk this ship from the jump.

2. It just doesn't make sense.

At all.

It just doesn't make sense at all.

Angelos would stand to make even MORE MONEY if he put a winning product on the field. If he sold the place out every night with a winning team, he could charge more for tickets, more for concessions...he could charge more and make more money in just about every arena possible. And guess what? With that money he could purchase one of those big sexy free agents this board is obsessed with.

Don't get it twisted, I'm not some Angelos apologist...I don't think he's a great owner by any stretch of the imagination. He's done a lot of stupid, stupid things and I wouldn't even know where to start by listing them all. Everything from bad front office hires, to bad player decisions to destroying relationships with all time Orioles greats...he's done a LOT wrong.

And I understand that we all have differing views on how this team should be built. We all want what's best for the franchise, we just have different views on how to get there.

But if you think for a minute that Angelos just fields a team to collect a profit and doesn't care what the W/L columns say...to borrow a favorite phrase from SG, "you're just wrong."

Think about it. If you were a business owner (of any business, not just a sports franchise) would you ever be satisfied to just being run of the mill? Average? Would you just settle for mediocrity (or in this case, sucking) when your competitors were routinely wiping the floor with you?

If you had any pride you'd try to do whatever you can to get a leg up despite some significant disadvantages. You might make some dumb decisions along the way, as Angelos has.

But wouldn't you get a little ticked off if anyone questioned whether or not you wanted to get better because you made a profit as it is? Why would anyone want to leave more business on the table?

[Sports Guy]

Our payroll in 1997 wasn;t high though...Maybe by those standards it was but when you compare it to now, it wasn't high.

So, how much more will he spend?

For much of the past decade, the Orioles payroll was in the area of 75 million, give or take.

So, we should easily be able to get into that territory.

It was 90 million a few years ago....He may not be able to do 90 million until attendance goes back up but we should be able to be in the 70-80 range.

I do think PA has cared more about making money than winning during the pre AM days though.

As soon as the Nats came to DC, I think he became scared.

Now? I think he wants to win but I don't think either PA or AM will do what it takes, financially, to compete in this division.

They don't invest enough in free agency...They don't invest enough Internationally.....They do a decent job in the draft but I think it could and should be better.

[Woody Held]

Our payroll in 1997 wasn;t high though...Maybe by those standards it was but when you compare it to now, it wasn't high.

So, how much more will he spend?

For much of the past decade, the Orioles payroll was in the area of 75 million, give or take.

So, we should easily be able to get into that territory.

It was 90 million a few years ago....He may not be able to do 90 million until attendance goes back up but we should be able to be in the 70-80 range.

I do think PA has cared more about making money than winning during the pre AM days though.

As soon as the Nats came to DC, I think he became scared.

Now? I think he wants to win but I don't think either PA or AM will do what it takes, financially, to compete in this division.

They don't invest enough in free agency...They don't invest enough Internationally.....They do a decent job in the draft but I think it could and should be better.

We had the second highest Payroll in Baasball in 1997. Second only to the Yankees, 24 million more than the Redsox's who were 15th. I agree we should be able to spend more now. I think we should be in the 100-125 million range.

[Sports Guy]

We had the second highest Payroll in Baasball in 1997. Second only to the Yankees, 24 million more than the Redsox's who were 15th

Yes I know...your point?

[NewMarketSean]

It's as crazy to say he cares about winning as it is to say he doesn't.

Bottom line is that we don't know how Angelos feels. But even then, how he feels doesn't mean a thing. His actions and the team's record the last few years are all the proof we need.

I don't believe Angelos is the meddlesome owner he was in the past anymore, but I do believe he is content to collect the money he makes from the team and has little interest in it anymore -- which is why he hired AM, a conservative GM who never spends money on top-flight free agents.

It's a marriage made in heaven for Angelos...and if we win, great. He's the one who's getting rich from it though.

[EL_Coyote]

Great post Moose

The thing is I believe fans think the team is always just one player away from annual contention. They think that one perhaps two stars would add 30+ wins per year. I don't think they can fathom that those stars cost a fortune and come with long term consequences.

I can understand they want a winner. I understand they want to blame someone. More often than not they blame PA and AM. I suspect in the next two seasons when the team is drastically improved and the wins start coming that this dies down. Right now they expect Brian Matusz to win a ROY award and Chris Tillman to win the Cy Young award. Matt Weiters has to win the triple crown and the team must produce at least six all stars.

I do agree with you. The owner wants the best possible product on the market. After years of failure and mistakes PA wants to win and sell out OPACY. I think the city is lucky that PA owns the Orioles and he is a local guy. I think people forget the previous ownership far too easily. Perhaps that is because it's been awhile.

I suspect if we all tighten our safety belts this one last year of rebuilding that this concept of miserly ownership begins to disappear.

[carolinaoriole]

I'm sorry, but this has to be discussed.

This argument that all the Orioles care about is Peter Angelos' pockets is downright absurd. I've seen it creep up more and more in recent weeks. It seems almost to be a conspiracy theory of sorts...that the Orioles don't care about winning, that the Orioles don't care about putting a competitive product on the field. All they care about is making money and that's it.

It's ridiculous for a number of reasons:

1. The early years in PA's ownership where we were winners, where OPACY was sold out every night, where our payroll was higher than anyone elses and when we made the playoffs two years in a row.

It's an example of PA's competitiveness and will to win. Yes, finances were different back then but every single Orioles fan LOVED Peter Angelos and what he was bringing to the table when he took ownership.

It's not like he sunk this ship from the jump.

2. It just doesn't make sense.

At all.

It just doesn't make sense at all.

Angelos would stand to make even MORE MONEY if he put a winning product on the field. If he sold the place out every night with a winning team, he could charge more for tickets, more for concessions...he could charge more and make more money in just about every arena possible. And guess what? With that money he could purchase one of those big sexy free agents this board is obsessed with.

Don't get it twisted, I'm not some Angelos apologist...I don't think he's a great owner by any stretch of the imagination. He's done a lot of stupid, stupid things and I wouldn't even know where to start by listing them all. Everything from bad front office hires, to bad player decisions to destroying relationships with all time Orioles greats...he's done a LOT wrong.

And I understand that we all have differing views on how this team should be built. We all want what's best for the franchise, we just have different views on how to get there.

But if you think for a minute that Angelos just fields a team to collect a profit and doesn't care what the W/L columns say...to borrow a favorite phrase from SG, "you're just wrong."

Think about it. If you were a business owner (of any business, not just a sports franchise) would you ever be satisfied to just being run of the mill? Average? Would you just settle for mediocrity (or in this case, sucking) when your competitors were routinely wiping the floor with you?

If you had any pride you'd try to do whatever you can to get a leg up despite some significant disadvantages. You might make some dumb decisions along the way, as Angelos has.

But wouldn't you get a little ticked off if anyone questioned whether or not you wanted to get better because you made a profit as it is? Why would anyone want to leave more business on the table?

This is the absolute greatest post ever.

[Moose Milligan]

Our payroll in 1997 wasn;t high though...Maybe by those standards it was but when you compare it to now, it wasn't high.

So, how much more will he spend?

For much of the past decade, the Orioles payroll was in the area of 75 million, give or take.

So, we should easily be able to get into that territory.

It was 90 million a few years ago....He may not be able to do 90 million until attendance goes back up but we should be able to be in the 70-80 range.

I do think PA has cared more about making money than winning during the pre AM days though.

As soon as the Nats came to DC, I think he became scared.

Now? I think he wants to win but I don't think either PA or AM will do what it takes, financially, to compete in this division.

They don't invest enough in free agency...They don't invest enough Internationally.....They do a decent job in the draft but I think it could and should be better.

The Nats aren't a threat. A bunch of Nats fans are just pissed off Orioles fans who jumped ship because Angelos did a bad job.

DC loves a winner...if the Orioles become a winner, more people will make the drive up from NoVa and DC to OPACY.

My OP really wasn't about the payroll and spending money and wondering if PA and AM will spend what it takes to compete. I suppose it goes hand in hand but we beat that horse to death on a daily basis...it was more about his wanting to be successful. It just baffles me how people think that all he wants is to make a profit and not care about the team he fields...when, if he puts a better team out, he'll make more of a profit.

If he's truly motivated by his bottom line, it only stands to reason that he'd want to put a winning team out on the field to increase his bottom line.

[Frobby]

We really know very little about the Orioles' finances and what profits, if any, he takes out of the organization. So yes, it is very speculative to say that Angelos cares only about making money.

I think Angelos did learn, in the late 90's, that a high payroll doesn't necessarily equate to a winning team. I think he's been more reluctant to spend ever since his highly-paid teams of that era didn't perform.

The real test will come when the Orioles are pretty good and need a key player or two to put them into genuine contention. That's when we'll see what his priorities are.

[Sports Guy]

The Nats aren't a threat. A bunch of Nats fans are just pissed off Orioles fans who jumped ship because Angelos did a bad job.

DC loves a winner...if the Orioles become a winner, more people will make the drive up from NoVa and DC to OPACY.

My OP really wasn't about the payroll and spending money and wondering if PA and AM will spend what it takes to compete. I suppose it goes hand in hand but we beat that horse to death on a daily basis...it was more about his wanting to be successful. It just baffles me how people think that all he wants is to make a profit and not care about the team he fields...when, if he puts a better team out, he'll make more of a profit.

If he's truly motivated by his bottom line, it only stands to reason that he'd want to put a winning team out on the field to increase his bottom line.

Tell PA that..Trust me, they became terrified of the Nats when they knew DC was getting the team...I know, I was working there at the time.

Your last sentence sounds good but its not as easy as that.

As many of you have said, there is no guarantee we would win if we added AGon and Holliday this offseason...So, without having any kind of guarantee, what incentive does PA have to spend the money?

The Orioles will spend when they can get a bargain..Otherwise, its not happening.

[Can_of_corn]

Question: Does anyone know how much, if any, money PA lost in the last economic downturn? I know the Mets ownership took a bath, and of course Hicks in Texas got wiped out.

If his personal fortune took a big hit it could lead to to him being more conservative with the O's finances.

[Kevin Lomax]

I mentioned this in a post not too long ago.

http://eutawstreethooligans.wordpress.com/2009/12/11/2nd-post-in-the-same-day/

For those of you whose eyes burn if you read a swear word, don't read it.

[Moose Milligan]

Tell PA that..Trust me, they became terrified of the Nats when they knew DC was getting the team...I know, I was working there at the time.

Well they have the potential to take away a bit of the market. But living in the burbs of DC, trust me, no one cares about the Nats. And Nats Stadium is just as empty on any given night as OPACY is. After that initial novelty has worn off, the Nats are bottom feeders.

Living here, the pecking order is:

1. Redskins

2. Capitals

3. Wizards

4. Nationals

Trust me, no one cares. And as they stand right now, they certainly aren't a threat to anything Orioles related. There will be an initial uptick when Strasburg comes up but that's about it.

[Sports Guy]

Question: Does anyone know how much, if any, money PA lost in the last economic downturn? I know the Mets ownership took a bath, and of course Hicks in Texas got wiped out.

If his personal fortune took a big hit it could lead to to him being more conservative with the O's finances.

If he is losing money, he should just sell the team...He will make over 150 million when he sells the team.

[Sports Guy]

Well they have the potential to take away a bit of the market. But living in the burbs of DC, trust me, no one cares about the Nats. And Nats Stadium is just as empty on any given night as OPACY is. After that initial novelty has worn off, the Nats are bottom feeders.

Living here, the pecking order is:

1. Redskins

2. Capitals

3. Wizards

4. Nationals

Trust me, no one cares. And as they stand right now, they certainly aren't a threat to anything Orioles related. There will be an initial uptick when Strasburg comes up but that's about it.

This is all meaningless Moose.

It doesn't matter what they are...it matters what PA and the Orioles organization perceive them to be.