The worst theory in the history of the OH

[GoldGlove21]

Care to give some examples of this for the time AM has been here? I'd agree this has happened before him, but I haven't seen that since he has been here.

The OP questioned the efforts of Angelos not MacPhail. While I couldn't get you any examples that can't be defended by "we really didn't want that guy", but here are a few hunches.

1.) Drafting Hobgood over Matzek

2.) Our inability to land any premium international talent

3.) Guys like LaRoche stand out to me, we like them enough to match the highest offer, but not beat it.

Until Andy MacPhail signs a free agent for $12M+ I will contunue to have some doubts. I like MacPhail and think he has done a fine job up to this point, but I really do feel that we will be complaining about the same thing this time next year, but that is just my opinion. The Orioles should be able to do as much as say the Seattle Mariners IMO.

[NewMarketSean]

When the O's flirt with .500 this year, the fans will comeback somewhat during the 2nd-half.

First, even flirting with .500 is not a given. I hope it is the case, but it's not written in stone.

Second, when the Orioles were flirting with .500 in August of 2008 (61-63), was attendance increasing?

I think Baltimore is even past mediocrity as a selling point now. They want a winner. If the Orioles are 5 games above .500 and somewhere in the Wild Card race in August, you'll see some increased attendance.

At this point I even wonder if a 2005-like first half will bring fans back out to the yard. As was the case in 2005, fans didn't even start to come back out until the O's had just started to fade.

It's going to take a couple of seasons of winning baseball to bring fans back out to the stadium night in and night out. Nothing short of that is going to erase 12 years of losing, and the epic collapse of the 2005 season.

[Frobby]

First, even flirting with .500 is not a given. I hope it is the case, but it's not written in stone.

Second, when the Orioles were flirting with .500 in August of 2008 (61-63), was attendance increasing?

I think Baltimore is even past mediocrity as a selling point now. They want a winner. If the Orioles are 5 games above .500 and somewhere in the Wild Card race in August, you'll see some increased attendance.

At this point I even wonder if a 2005-like first half will bring fans back out to the yard. As was the case in 2005, fans didn't even start to come back out until the O's had just started to fade.

It's going to take a couple of seasons of winning baseball to bring fans back out to the stadium night in and night out. Nothing short of that is going to erase 12 years of losing, and the epic collapse of the 2005 season.

Not just the epic collapse of 2005, but the continual August/September collapse in every season but one since 2002. Fans will need to see that this pattern has ended before they start to get very excited about the team's record in May, June or July.

That said, there are a lot of exciting players to follow on this team, and if the O's were 5-10 games over .500 at the midpoint of the season I could see the fans starting to get excited. And I think one year over .500 would get attendance increasing, because the fans can see this is a young team that should be improving each year for the next few seasons.

[SaltDoggyDog]

I'm sorry, but this has to be discussed.

This argument that all the Orioles care about is Peter Angelos' pockets is downright absurd. I've seen it creep up more and more in recent weeks. It seems almost to be a conspiracy theory of sorts...that the Orioles don't care about winning, that the Orioles don't care about putting a competitive product on the field. All they care about is making money and that's it.

It's ridiculous for a number of reasons:

1. The early years in PA's ownership where we were winners, where OPACY was sold out every night, where our payroll was higher than anyone elses and when we made the playoffs two years in a row.

It's an example of PA's competitiveness and will to win. Yes, finances were different back then but every single Orioles fan LOVED Peter Angelos and what he was bringing to the table when he took ownership.

It's not like he sunk this ship from the jump.

I must make a point before I state my Opinion on this. PA used to be my hero. Seriously! He was an attorney with big pockets and he owned my favorite Major League Franchise. Onto my point.

There are a couple things that tie into this.

If PA came on board as owner and immediately sunk the ship, he would have been the most inept owner of all time, probably in any sport. Fans would hate him and this slippery slope of decreasing attendance would have occurred 5-10 years earlier.

He also had a new stadium to continue to fill. He would have been the joke of Baltimore if he came in, in 93 and blew things up. Or lost the interest of fans.

There is an obvious correlation between filling seats and making money. There's no way to argue that.

[MemorialStadKid]

It's as crazy to say he cares about winning as it is to say he doesn't.

Bottom line is that we don't know how Angelos feels. But even then, how he feels doesn't mean a thing. His actions and the team's record the last few years are all the proof we need.

I don't believe Angelos is the meddlesome owner he was in the past anymore, but I do believe he is content to collect the money he makes from the team and has little interest in it anymore -- which is why he hired AM, a conservative GM who never spends money on top-flight free agents.

It's a marriage made in heaven for Angelos...and if we win, great. He's the one who's getting rich from it though.

I said the same thing in this thread --

http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2028260&postcount=88

-- and was told I was making things up like some conspiracy theorist.

I still shudder to think how many people still give this guy the benefit of the doubt when there's no real reason on any level to do so.

MSK

[EL_Coyote]

A few questions...

Isn't a Major League Franchise supposed to make money?

Doesn't Peter Angelos have a right to try and turn a profit?

Would you have the team lose money?

Doesn't a larger profit margin allow for larger salaries?

[NewMarketSean]

I said the same thing in this thread --

http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2028260&postcount=88

-- and was told I was making things up like some conspiracy theorist.

I still shudder to think how many people still give this guy the benefit of the doubt when there's no real reason on any level to do so.

MSK

Well it is a theory because all we can do is say what we see happening. And the choice of GM speaks volumes...not about Angelos' desire to win, but how much money he intends to invest in the team. Teams have proven that you can win and not spend much on FA's. And that is what is happening here in Baltimore, or what appears to be happening.

If Angelos really cared, and I mean REALLY cared...and had changed his ways, he would have hired a GM who spends, or told MacPhail to do what he does best (acquire young talent through trades) AND spend.

The writing is on the wall as far as I am concerned. We're going to try to win by developing our own talent and spending very little on outside help. Like I said, it can happen...and it might even be the best way to combat NY and BOS. But it does make it harder, both to win and for the fans.

[El Gordo]

The OP questioned the efforts of Angelos not MacPhail. While I couldn't get you any examples that can't be defended by "we really didn't want that guy", but here are a few hunches.

1.) Drafting Hobgood over Matzek

2.) Our inability to land any premium international talent

3.) Guys like LaRoche stand out to me, we like them enough to match the highest offer, but not beat it.

Until Andy MacPhail signs a free agent for $12M+ I will contunue to have some doubts. I like MacPhail and think he has done a fine job up to this point, but I really do feel that we will be complaining about the same thing this time next year, but that is just my opinion. The Orioles should be able to do as much as say the Seattle Mariners IMO.

These are arguments about talent evaluation, not about a willingness to spend a lot of money on an important need.

[SrMeowMeow]

The theory is terrible, for many reasons.

However.

The Florida Marlins have basically run a business off of staying dirt cheap and around .500. They've had more success than we've had, yes, but I would contend (without proof) that it's more profitable to have a cheap, bad team than an expensive, mediocre team. Baseball teams are money machines, especially with RSNs, and just putting any team on the field is enough to make a huge baseline profit.

On the other hand, I think it's annoying that people expect Angelos to pay millions of dollars so we can win 82 games.

If I had to match every million dollars the Orioles spent with a single dollar of mine, I still wouldn't want them to make half the moves people advocate. It's not Monopoly money. You are asking a savvy businessman to pour money down a hole for a few seasons so we can have a .500 season (or maybe not). For the last time, we will sink or swim with our core. I have every confidence Angelos will spend when the time is right, but he's not an idiot, especially about money. The way people throw huge figures around on here make me confident that they are either a) not thinking or b) going to be broke for a long time.

[SrMeowMeow]

The writing is on the wall as far as I am concerned. We're going to try to win by developing our own talent and spending very little on outside help. Like I said, it can happen...and it might even be the best way to combat NY and BOS. But it does make it harder, both to win and for the fans.

A man is playing a hole of golf. He gets to the green in three strokes, using three different clubs, none of them his putter. Before he can select his club for the last shot, his partner turns to an observer and says, "The writing's on the wall. He can't or won't use his putter - so he has no chance to make this last shot."

Do you see? Do you see why this is bad logic?

[Moose Milligan]

Someone repped me and made an excellent point that needs mentioning:

If money is all that Angelos cares about, how come he hasn't sold the naming rights to OPACY?

[NewMarketSean]

A man is playing a hole of golf. He gets to the green in three strokes, using three different clubs, none of them his putter. Before he can select his club for the last shot, his partner turns to an observer and says, "The writing's on the wall. He can't or won't use his putter - so he has no chance to make this last shot."

Do you see? Do you see why this is bad logic?

AM said the Orioles would be bat buyers this offseason. Then he signed Garrett Atkins and his Coors Field .650 OPS.

I know the offseason is not over, but there aren't many bats left.

So it's kind of like that guy saying he's going to use his putter to make the putt, and then deciding to do a "Kevin Costner in Tin Cup" and hitting the ball in using his putter as a pool stick.

[BRobinsonfan]

Tell PA that..Trust me, they became terrified of the Nats when they knew DC was getting the team...I know, I was working there at the time.

Really? What section?

[Sports Guy]

Someone repped me and made an excellent point that needs mentioning:

If money is all that Angelos cares about, how come he hasn't sold the naming rights to OPACY?

PA doesn't own OPACY...I am not sure he can make this decision alone...But again, I am not sure.

[Sports Guy]

Really? What section?

Sales/ballpark tours/customer service.