Tejada .971, L. Hernandez .965

[rolliefingers]

I like Hu from the Dodgers from what I have seen so far.

Hu's the man!

(sorry)

[Frobby]

Frobby, why do you gloss over this fact? Miggy is 9th of 11 in RF. ZR appears to be a more sujective measure. Trembley says he does not have range to his left. Most people's eyes say his range is limited. I don't know why you are fighting this fight.

Luis Hernandez is probably not going to hit enough to be an everyday SS.

The O's need another solution. I like Hu from the Dodgers from what I have seen so far.

I'm not sure why you say I glossed over it, since you are quoting me citing that statistic. However, RF has limited utility, because all it does it count how many total chances a player had per nine innings. That is influenced by range, but it also is influenced by a host of other factors, such as the K rates and GB/FB rates of the pitchers, whether the pitchers are LH or RH, and the dimensions of the stadium. So I look at RF, but when RF says one thing and ZR says the opposite, I usually assume that neither is truly indicative and that the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

To the extent I rely on my own eyes, I say Tejada's range up the middle is subpar, while his range to the hole (including the ability to make a throw on the balls he reaches) is above average. Overall I'd peg him as slightly below average defensively for a starting SS, but not near the bottom of the pile as many seem to suggest. My biggest problem with Miggy's defense this year is that he was very erratic. He made 15 errors and 11 of those came in April and August. In those two months he really looked terrible, the rest of the time I thought he was fine.

[wildcard]

I'm not sure why you say I glossed over it, since you are quoting me citing that statistic. However, RF has limited utility, because all it does it count how many total chances a player had per nine innings. That is influenced by range, but it also is influenced by a host of other factors, such as the K rates and GB/FB rates of the pitchers, whether the pitchers are LH or RH, and the dimensions of the stadium. So I look at RF, but when RF says one thing and ZR says the opposite, I usually assume that neither is truly indicative and that the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

To the extent I rely on my own eyes, I say Tejada's range up the middle is subpar, while his range to the hole (including the ability to make a throw on the balls he reaches) is above average. Overall I'd peg him as slightly below average defensively for a starting SS, but not near the bottom of the pile as many seem to suggest. My biggest problem with Miggy's defense this year is that he was very erratic. He made 15 errors and 11 of those came in April and August. In those two months he really looked terrible, the rest of the time I thought he was fine.

I agree with everything you just wrote. However, you seem to be defending Tejada as a SS, which is something I did for a long time. That appears to be a losing battle now. The manager has openly come out and said he wants some one with more range. I think the only way that does not happen this winter is if the O's can't acquire a decent replacement.

This does not mean that Miggy can't move to third, though that is quiet up in the air at the moment.

All the stats in the world are not go to help Miggy stay the O's SS if the manager and FO believe he is hurting the team defensively and they want to make a change.

[Frobby]

I agree with everything you just wrote. However, you seem to be defending Tejada as a SS, which is something I did for a long time. That appears to be a losing battle now. The manager has openly come out and said he wants some one with more range. I think the only way that does not happen this winter is if the O's can't acquire a decent replacement.

This does not mean that Miggy can't move to third, though that is quiet up in the air at the moment.

All the stats in the world are not go to help Miggy stay the O's SS if the manager and FO believe he is hurting the team defensively and they want to make a change.

It goes without saying that whatever I write in a post on OH isn't going to influence the Orioles' management. Right, Andy? Right, Dave?

I agree with you, the O's want a better defensive SS. Assuming that's the case, the solution is to trade Miggy, not to move him to another position. He's just going to sulk if we put him somewhere else.

[boogidownoriole]

Some people dig deep to find the truth, and some people watch SportsCenter with a couple of beers.

Excuse me Drungo, but my choice of beverage is Hine Cognac.

[Boston Dave]

It goes without saying that whatever I write in a post on OH isn't going to influence the Orioles' management. Right, Andy? Right, Dave?

I agree with you, the O's want a better defensive SS. Assuming that's the case, the solution is to trade Miggy, not to move him to another position. He's just going to sulk if we put him somewhere else.

Bottom line is if the Os want a better defensive SS, they can find a million guys in the minors that can get to anything from 1b to 3b, and don't hit a lick.

I think we must trade Migs, but I don't feel great about it. Guys that can hit and play a competent middle infield don't grow on trees.

[wildcard]

It goes without saying that whatever I write in a post on OH isn't going to influence the Orioles' management. Right, Andy? Right, Dave?

I agree with you, the O's want a better defensive SS. Assuming that's the case, the solution is to trade Miggy, not to move him to another position. He's just going to sulk if we put him somewhere else.

If the O's trade Miggy I think they have to divide what he does for the team into two parts and find different players to fill each role.

1) Starting SS

2) Middle of the order hitting

I think Hu from the Dodgers or A. Cabrera from Cleveland are the best I have seen to full the SS role. A trade of DCab might get that done.

That leaves the trade of Miggy for a middle of the order hitter. Either an OF or a 1st baseman.

Trading Miggy is not my first perference, but you make a good point that Miggy has to buy into a move to third and that may be a very tough thing for him to do.

[Old#5fan]

I agree with everything you just wrote. However, you seem to be defending Tejada as a SS, which is something I did for a long time. That appears to be a losing battle now. The manager has openly come out and said he wants some one with more range. I think the only way that does not happen this winter is if the O's can't acquire a decent replacement.

This does not mean that Miggy can't move to third, though that is quiet up in the air at the moment.

All the stats in the world are not go to help Miggy stay the O's SS if the manager and FO believe he is hurting the team defensively and they want to make a change.

I think this point was made quite a while back on this forum that Tejada was hurting this team defensively and needs moved or traded. The original point was met with a lot of ridicule by many of the stats people here but after Tejada returned it became obviously merely by watching. His bungling of routine DP balls was particularly glaring, and that doesn't show up in the stats if he at least gets an out as you cannot assume a DP. Now that this has been confirmed by managment, this is no longer really debatable. The question is what do you do if he is not traded? Move him to third or LF?

I happen to like Moore and think he deserves a shot at third, so I would be looking to move Miguel to LF if I was the Manager/GM. If not feasable he would be the regular DH whether he wants to or not. I also think Hernandez at least deserves a look as his issue is whether or not he can hit well enough and the only way to find out is to play the lad. I think one of either Tejada or Mora will definitely be gone by next season or at the very least moved or changing positions. It has to happen.

[Old#5fan]

Bottom line is if the Os want a better defensive SS, they can find a million guys in the minors that can get to anything from 1b to 3b, and don't hit a lick.

I think we must trade Migs, but I don't feel great about it. Guys that can hit and play a competent middle infield don't grow on trees.

Yes, but his hitting is not the problem its his defense which is. He needs to either go or move. No two ways about it. I am glad the Orioles management is as smart as the minority of this forum was about this!

[Mackus]

Yes, but his hitting is not the problem its his defense which is. He needs to either go or move. No two ways about it. I am glad the Orioles management is as smart as the minority of this forum was about this!

Even if his defense is a bit below average, his bat more than makes up for it. He's not a bad overall SS, and the biggest problem most had with your "minority" is that almost all of you were claiming he was hurting the team, when he clearly and undeniably was not.

If you want a SS who will save more runs defensively, thats fine, but you must realize that replacing Tejada with a defensive-minded SS who can't hit well will make the team worse. You can probably improve the team overall by trading him for another player, but there isn't anyone available cheaply that we could straight up replace Tejada for that would improve the team.

I still agree that Tejada should be traded, but not because he's a poor option at SS, but because we should completely rebuild and trade away any veteran we can that likely won't be a major impact player 2-3 years down the road.

[Mackus]

The original point was met with a lot of ridicule by many of the stats people here but after Tejada returned it became obviously merely by watching.

This is inaccurate. Tejada was not hurting anything defensively before coming back. He had a poor April, but fielded fantastically in May and June before getting hurt.

When he came back from the injury, his defense was quite bad at first. I'd chalk a lot of that up to his time on the DL being the longest he's gone without playing baseball every day in probably his entire life. By about mid-August or September he had gotten back into playing solid defense. I wouldn't even call his defense over the last month to six weeks below average. He's certainly not going to kill a team defensively playing the way he did at the end of the season (or up to his injury). If he had continued playing as poorly as he did immediately after returning, this would be a much more pertinent conversation. As it is, its more of just a superhighway for Tejada-bashing.

[Old#5fan]

This is inaccurate. Tejada was not hurting anything defensively before coming back. He had a poor April, but fielded fantastically in May and June before getting hurt.

When he came back from the injury, his defense was quite bad at first. I'd chalk a lot of that up to his time on the DL being the longest he's gone without playing baseball every day in probably his entire life. By about mid-August or September he had gotten back into playing solid defense. I wouldn't even call his defense over the last month to six weeks below average. He's certainly not going to kill a team defensively playing the way he did at the end of the season (or up to his injury). If he had continued playing as poorly as he did immediately after returning, this would be a much more pertinent conversation. As it is, its more of just a superhighway for Tejada-bashing.

I respectfully have to disagree. The entire argument to replace Tejada defensively began while he was on the DL (to the best of my knowledge). Ergo, some posters here (a definite minority) were dissatisfied with his defense before he returned from the DL. The point many of us were making was his transition problems in turning what should have been routine DP's which don't show up anywhere on the stats sheets other than extending innings and wearing out pitchers needlessly. Not to mention the morale problem when a DP fails to get turned to end an inning that definitely should have.

After he returned his stats were even bad, and it became glaring. However, many of us had noted his defensive problems and didn't need stats to notice it, nor did we unnecessarily rely on them when what we saw was that he was having problems. I for one, don't think it a coincidence that apparently Orioles management has arrived at the same conclusion as some of the astute Orioles Hangouters did early on!

[Mackus]

I respectfully have to disagree. The entire argument to replace Tejada defensively began while he was on the DL (to the best of my knowledge). Ergo, some posters here (a definite minority) were dissatisfied with his defense before he returned from the DL. The point many of us were making was his transition problems in turning what should have been routine DP's which don't show up anywhere on the stats sheets other than extending innings and wearing out pitchers needlessly. Not to mention the morale problem when a DP fails to get turned to end an inning that definitely should have.

After he returned his stats were even bad, and it became glaring. However, many of us had noted his defensive problems and didn't need stats to notice it, nor did we unnecessarily rely on them when what we saw was that he was having problems.

People may have been dissatisfied with his defense before the injury, but those were only people who were adamant that we needed an elite SS. There was nobody saying that he was a terrible defender or a liability. These people picked up a few more followers after Hernandez played well while Tejada was out, and even more when Tejada came back and struggled. But the bottom line is Tejada, once he got readjusted, is still the same defensive player he was before the injury. A solid, about average defensive player.

The argument that people want an elite defensive SS no matter how putrid his offense is one thing. I think its idiotic, I'll take the best overall player, but at least its a reasonable debate. The debate that Tejada is a liability defensively that is killing us every inning he is out there is simply patently absurd. Its a level of insanity that only Eli Eon could reach, at least I thought.

[Old#5fan]

People may have been dissatisfied with his defense before the injury, but those were only people who were adamant that we needed an elite SS. There was nobody saying that he was a terrible defender or a liability. These people picked up a few more followers after Hernandez played well while Tejada was out, and even more when Tejada came back and struggled. But the bottom line is Tejada, once he got readjusted, is still the same defensive player he was before the injury. A solid, about average defensive player.

The argument that people want an elite defensive SS no matter how putrid his offense is one thing. I think its idiotic, I'll take the best overall player, but at least its a reasonable debate. The debate that Tejada is a liability defensively that is killing us every inning he is out there is simply patently absurd. Its a level of insanity that only Eli Eon could reach, at least I thought.

I don't recall Eli Eon ever posting that Tejada was killing the Orioles every inning but he did singlehandely cause some losses by bungling what should have been routine DP balls that end innings. He even did that before he went on the DL. He seemed to lose focus when he had a runner bearing down on him and frequently mishandle the transfer of the ball from glove to hand for the subsequent throw. Even the tv commentators were remarking about it. He was appearing to be a big liability out there and yet the stats again, don't reflect a botched double play. ERgo, many stats people were in denial that he was hurting the team which he clearly was. Why else would the Orioles management be discussing publicly moving him off short? The idea of moving him certainly is not absurd, and it is only absurd to think it wasn't caused by his shoddy play on the field. Otherwise the talk would never had originated in the first place, much less become a reality!

[Mackus]

I don't recall Eli Eon ever posting that Tejada was killing the Orioles every inning but he did singlehandely cause some losses by bungling what should have been routine DP balls that end innings. He even did that before he went on the DL. He seemed to lose focus when he had a runner bearing down on him and frequently mishandle the transfer of the ball from glove to hand for the subsequent throw. Even the tv commentators were remarking about it. He was appearing to be a big liability out there and yet the stats again, don't reflect a botched double play. ERgo, many stats people were in denial that he was hurting the team which he clearly was. Why else would the Orioles management be discussing publicly moving him off short? The idea of moving him certainly is not absurd, and it is only absurd to think it wasn't caused by his shoddy play on the field. Otherwise the talk would never had originated in the first place, much less become a reality!

First of all, no one play single-handedly loses games.

I'm not talking about stats saying Tejada was good or not. I'm talking about observation. I would seriously doubt the intelligence or baseball acumen of anyone claiming Tejada was far below average defensively before his injury. He played well below average immediately upon returning, but he's always been plus or minus an average defender otherwise and got back to that level around the end of the season.