MacPhail: "We've taken a giant step backwards."

[Orioles West]

I'm already extremely apathetic. I feel now like I normally feel in late august.

And it sucks.

It really does feel like the last couple of late Augusts in late April, and it does suck.

And I still like most of the rebuild, but this year's roster is a step back.

-Don

[RenegadeOsFan]

Personally, I am just tired of people complaining about how, "we are not spending enough, blah blah blah." I guarantee that if we were to be spending a lot and still losing, we will be hearing, "we are spending too much...blah, blah, blah."

It is such an easy argument to make that someone should be spending more money when they have the profit to do so. I mean, it really is. All you have to do is grab a couple figures here from Forbes, a couple figures here regarding players contracts, and then BOOM!! Like Tough-Actin' Tenactin, you've got an argument that you believe you can win (okay, so it's not that much like Tenactin). But there are a lot of other factors to consider than just grabbing someone's checkbook and writing out checks that would make Bernie Madoff blush.

People in this thread also seem to like to compare the Orioles to different organizations outside of MLB. Well if that is the case, then how about all of us sit down around the campfire for this whimsical tale of how teams that have profit, can't spend it all on player's salaries.

Twas the year of 2008, when the NFL Owners decided to end the Collective-Bargaining Agreement (CBA) before its actual expiration date. The reason that the owners of the largest and most profitable sport in the country did this, because they were spending too much money on players' contracts. The owners said that 60% of their budgets went to players' contracts, the players' disagreed and said only 55% went there. The owners argued that the current rise of players' salaries were affecting their overrall franchise. They were having trouble upgrading stadiums, paying employees, etc. They even had their hand-chosen speaker, the NFL Commissioner Rodger Goodell, state the severity of the issue during his "State of the Union" address.

Yes, the argument has been made that the NFL owners are simply greedy and want to get the players' salary figures back down to around 45%. But the reason I bring you all this story, is to try and show to some of you, that simply having a profit, doesn't mean it needs to go into players' salaries. There are other things that a sports organization can use the money towards.

The argument of why not spend more is long-time argument here, but the fact remains, you can't make someone spend money, unless you're the government.

Do I think the Orioles should spend more money on FA's? I sure do. But I think they should do it when we have a solid foundation. Before this season it looked like we did have a solid foundation. But so far this season, it shows that we do not yet.

I understand how people are getting frustrated about the current condition of the Orioles, but look at our young starting pitching. For the most part, they are doing pretty good so far. The arms in AAA seem to be getting themselves into good shape. Like SG said in his one thread, we will likely soon have a surplus in starting pitching. This is a great problem to have.

I was upset that we did not get any big name FA this offseason, but I can see why. Put in some journeymen now and wait for Snyder and Bell. Unfortunately, the fill-ins haven't played that well, and the fact we don't have Brian Roberts at the top of our lineup is really, really hurting this lineup.

I am willing to wait one more season to see where the FO is taking us before I start laying total blame on them, and not just the players (before anyone says anything, I am laying some blame on the FO such as the Atkins signing).

[Mackus]

Really? Clearly you can call trades at the time they happen there Notrofrickin'domus. Can you grade out some drafts right after they happen and then tell everyone it's hindsight if it doesn't work out as well?

Save the sarcasm for someone else, please.

Trades obviously can be judged at the time, and how they look at the time in terms of the relative value of each player involved is the best way to judge the men making the trades. You obviously have to look at how things panned out down the road as well, but if the players involved don't make it, that doesn't necessarily mean they weren't valuable of full of potential. That could just mean your development system is crap, and I think there is a very good case to make that the Orioles ability to teach and coach positional talent, in the minors and majors, is beyond awful. Our coaches and minor league staff are terrible at their job of developing talent, at least that is their track record.

Unless you just think Tillman and Jones never had any potential and it was MacPhail's fault for thinking they would be good players eventually and that 160 innings of Bedard was way too valuable to give up for those two bums.

Its the same as giving grades for drafts. Ultimately time will tell if the players with potential pan out or not, but the teams that get the best grades are the teams that pick the players that look the best at the time they picked them. Same with trades. And the Bedard trade was a masterful trade when it happened, and still comes out way in our favor even in retrospect, as Jones and Tillman and now Bell have great potential to help us in the future.

[Dipper9]

What's truly amazing is that almost everybody on the team is underperforming, with the exception of Wiggy and most of the starting pitching. How often do you see an entire team play badly all at the same time? We will snap out of it at some point, but its truly amazing how poorly this team is collectively playing right now.

My biggest fear is what others have mentioned...once we start hitting, the starters will fall back to their 5.00 ERA's and we'll STILL lose games!

This could be a very long season!

[Slappy]

Johnson is hitting below .150.

His OBP is .385, better than any of our regulars save for Wigginton.

Adam LaRoche, another guy MacPhail probably could have signed, is hitting .299/.397/.582 (.980) in Arizona.

Garrett Atkins was definitely a better option.

[LookitsPuck]

Signing Atkins was a joke. I don't blame them for picking up Gonzalez, although they should have compared mechanics in spring when he was completely ineffective to his mechanics last year to identify that he was injured.

Miguel Tejada was a solid pickup.

[Smokin' Joe O]

The playing against the Yankees, Red Sox, and Rays arguement is getting stale. Either you find a way to compete or you don't. Everyone has the same oppertunity across baseball to draft and develop players as the Rays do. Everyone also has the same oppertunity to spend money on premium free agent talent like the Red Sox and Yankees do.

Do you honestly believe if the Orioles were in another division that they would be competeing and contending? Because they wouldn't.

It doesn't matter what division you are in, if you can't execute simple baseball fundamentals you won't win.

I have to quote this because I'm getting to this point too. Do the Sox/Yanks pose a unique hurdle that other teams don't have to face? Yes. Does that mean that we shouldn't have been competitive or over .500 once since 1997? Absolutely not.

The Rays (with less money to spend than we have) have built a great team. They have no advantages and "suffer" from playing in the East. They've dealt with it. The Blue Jays have had numerous seasons in which they've finished 3rd and been over .500. Granted, they haven't broken through to beat out Boston or NY, but they have a legitimate gripe that they might have been a playoff team in the Central or West.

The O's have every opportunity to look at what THEY need to do in order to compete within the landscape of MLB. They still have not executed a successful plan. So, in short, yes it may be tougher for them each year than a team from the AL Central, but that didn't stop the Jays from fielding competitive teams or the Rays from fielding the best team in the division in 2 of the past 3 years.

[hobbycars]

I think just the opposite. I'd like to see the Orioles make a statement and be buyers at the deadline to give the team a boost in the second half.

Fire the staff now, put Valentine in place or whoever and tell the team that hiring Trembley back was a mistake and despite their record they are now at 0-0 and tomorrow is Opening Day and to go treat the season just like that.

Now is not the time to blow this thing up again. You risk completely crushing the young players' spirits and drive.

I really don't understand why people get on you. I personally think you have very good ideas.

I agree, but given what is out there-Bob Melvin might be a better choice. Again, not saying DT is the main reason for us losing there but something has to change.

Show the team and fans you care and you are absolutely right, losing is contagious. Right now, Matusz seems to be the only competing at an all-star level and some don't seem to care at all. A winning attitude starts at the top.

[Tony-OH]

Even if you want to evaluate the trade in hindsight, which I don't really agree with doing, it's still a great trade. Bedard was worth 3 wins over 2008-09. Jones 3.8 and Sherrill about 1.5 on top of that. We are already in "gravy" land here. Remember that you can't count anything Bedard does from here out because the M's had to sign him to a new contract.

I don't think you evaluate the trade by what Bedard does, I think you look at it from the perspective of, "Did the trade help the Orioles become contenders?" The Orioles have finished in last every year since the trade and are in dead last this year. If Tillman, Jones and Bell don't become key players in a contending team then you can at least attest to the fact the trade did not improve the Orioles.

When you trade away an ace pitcher you should receive back players that improve your team's fortunes. If you did not, then you traded for the wrong players and thus makes it a bad trade.

If Tillman, Jones and Bell don't work out, the only things we would be able to conclude is that MacPahil had the right idea, but failed to get the right guys in return.

Let's hope T-M-B don't make us have to say that!!!

[Tony-OH]

Its the same as giving grades for drafts. Ultimately time will tell if the players with potential pan out or not, but the teams that get the best grades are the teams that pick the players that look the best at the time they picked them. Same with trades. And the Bedard trade was a masterful trade when it happened, and still comes out way in our favor even in retrospect, as Jones and Tillman and now Bell have great potential to help us in the future.

Who cares who they looked at the time. It's how they end up that matters.

That's like saying the Glenn Davis trade for the Orioles was a masterful trade because everyone knew that Davis was the power bat the Orioles needed since the departure of Murray.

I could care less how they are rated at the time. The results are all that matters. Someone had to evaluate the players the Orioles got in return before they were acquired.

Let's jump in the Hangout time-machine, shall we...........

Mackus: Boy, this Glenn Davis trade was masterful. The Orioles definitely needed that power bat. No matter how those guys Finley, Schilling, and Harnish end up this is a great trade for the Orioles because clearly Glenn Davis will hit 40 homers a year away from that spacious Astrodome. Clearly I can call this an amazing trade right now.

Back into the Hangout time-machine for the return.....

No Virginia, there is no Santa Claus and it doesn't matter one iota how a trade is rated at the time. All that matters is how it ends up.

It doesn't mean the logic was wrong, but it does mean the trade was not good if the players don't improve your club.

[Singleton]

I don't think you evaluate the trade by what Bedard does, I think you look at it from the perspective of, "Did the trade help the Orioles become contenders?" The Orioles have finished in last every year since the trade and are in dead last this year. If Tillman, Jones and Bell don't become key players in a contending team then you can at least attest to the fact the trade did not improve the Orioles.

When you trade away an ace pitcher you should receive back players that improve your team's fortunes. If you did not, then you traded for the wrong players and thus makes it a bad trade.

If Tillman, Jones and Bell don't work out, the only things we would be able to conclude is that MacPahil had the right idea, but failed to get the right guys in return.

Let's hope T-M-B don't make us have to say that!!!

I see where you''re coming from but I think we're tying to much up into one trade. Seattle didn't become a contender because of the trade -- they became one in spite of it.

I think the criticism wouldn't be of the trade it would be what the two organizations did around it.

Seatle happened to already have King Felix and Ichiro and their GM did a good job of acquiring other talent to put around them. He found a closer off the scrap heap (Aardsma), a cheap firstbaseman who is producing (Kotchman)

added some other solid pieces (Guittierez) and spent money when the time is right.

AM did a good job on the trade. Jones and Sherrill have already played in an All-Star game and with Tillman and Bell (minus Sherrill) are still very, very young with a lot of promise.

The disappointing part isn't the trade to me its that there's no reason that AM couldn't have acquired Aardsma and Kotchman and a few other pieces to move us along.

[DrungoHazewood]

I don't think you evaluate the trade by what Bedard does, I think you look at it from the perspective of, "Did the trade help the Orioles become contenders?" The Orioles have finished in last every year since the trade and are in dead last this year. If Tillman, Jones and Bell don't become key players in a contending team then you can at least attest to the fact the trade did not improve the Orioles.

When you trade away an ace pitcher you should receive back players that improve your team's fortunes. If you did not, then you traded for the wrong players and thus makes it a bad trade.

If Tillman, Jones and Bell don't work out, the only things we would be able to conclude is that MacPahil had the right idea, but failed to get the right guys in return.

Let's hope T-M-B don't make us have to say that!!!

How about this evaluation:

- At the time of the trade it was a steal. Countless years of team control of five players with talent and potential for two years of a fragile ace.

- Right now it's worked out in the O's favor in terms of wins added, so it's at least a decent deal in hindsight.

- The final grade will be years in the future, when we can look back at the Oriole careers of Bell, Jones, Tillman, Sherrill, and see how much they contributed to a winning team in Baltimore.

[Dipper9]

How about this evaluation:

- At the time of the trade it was a steal. Countless years of team control of five players with talent and potential for two years of a fragile ace.

- Right now it's worked out in the O's favor in terms of wins added, so it's at least a decent deal in hindsight.

- The final grade will be years in the future, when we can look back at the Oriole careers of Bell, Jones, Tillman, Sherrill, and see how much they contributed to a winning team in Baltimore.

:rofl:

You had me all the way up until those final four words!

[eddie83]

Beltre and Figgins did not want to come here. Atkins did so we ended up with him. MacPhail then tried to sell him to the fans. "We watched him last year and we think we can straighten him out". Andy should run for office.

That one year deal has set us back for decades.

[osfan83]

What's truly amazing is that almost everybody on the team is underperforming, with the exception of Wiggy and most of the starting pitching. How often do you see an entire team play badly all at the same time? We will snap out of it at some point, but its truly amazing how poorly this team is collectively playing right now.

My biggest fear is what others have mentioned...once we start hitting, the starters will fall back to their 5.00 ERA's and we'll STILL lose games!

This could be a very long season!

For an entire month!