The "they don't want to come here" excuse

[Sports Guy]

Look at how the Orioles are constructed and what little talent they have in the minors that's close to contributing.

They are going to have to go outside the organization for talent and they are going to need some of the best talent in baseball to compete with the other teams in the division.

They don't have enough trade chips to get that talent so they are going to have to spend in FA as well.

It's not a great way to build an organization, you are correct, but it's the only option available to the Orioles to win right now which is why Showalter is here. This team needs to win before they can worry about sustaining the winning.

No, you are still wrong.

The Orioles WILL NOT contend next year barring a minor miracle.

So, they need to make solid moves this offseason..trade for a buy low guy like Reynolds. Obtain a SS that is a huge upgrade.

The Orioles just need to greatly upgrade over the garbage they had last year..that and improvement from their young players will give them a huge boost. Then, next offseason, they can make a run at higher priced guys to put them over the top.

They shouldn't get rid of draft picks(unless they get Beltre or CC) either.

[JTrea81]

No, you are still wrong.

The Orioles WILL NOT contend next year barring a minor miracle.

So, they need to make solid moves this offseason..trade for a buy low guy like Reynolds. Obtain a SS that is a huge upgrade.

The Orioles just need to greatly upgrade over the garbage they had last year..that and improvement from their young players will give them a huge boost. Then, next offseason, they can make a run at higher priced guys to put them over the top.

This team needs the higher priced guys to get to the top, and then they can trade for somebody like Reynolds to put them over it.

You don't give a player a 6-8 year deal to put you over the top. A player that has that kind of contract is a franchise building block.

It's those guys that will give you the extra 2-4 WAR you need to get into the playoffs that put you "over the top."

That's when you sign a guy to a 1 year deal or trade for a rent-a-player because he'll give you that extra push.

[Sports Guy]

This team needs the higher priced guys to get to the top, and then they can trade for somebody like Reynolds to put them over it.

You don't give a player a 6-8 year deal to put you over the top. A player that has that kind of contract is a franchise building block.

It's those guys that will give you the extra 2-4 WAR you need to get into the playoffs that put you "over the top."

That's when you sign a guy to a 1 year deal or trade for a rent-a-player because he'll give you that extra push.

Again, you just don't understand how things work..at all.

Your overall general message is correct but the way you want to get there is awful.

[bluedog]

It's rare to flat out hear someone say "I don't want to go there."

But you've got to be pretty naive to not understand why players don't want to come here. We're not competitive and haven't been for a very, very long time. I don't want to say we're baseball's Siberia but we almost are.

Trea, we're not competitive...in the standings or in offering contracts. You're absolutely wrong, they don't want to come here. And they haven't wanted to for quite some time. Can you prove me wrong?

Free agents in any sport are reluctant to go to dysfunctional organizations. For the past 10 - 15 years, the O's have been one of the most dysfunctional organizations in pro sports. To me, that's the primary barrier to players wanting to come here. Ergo, the key to fixing that perception is to bring in the right baseball people and minimize the perception that Angelos exercises an unacceptable amount of control over baseball decisions.

But in the end, money > all other considerations for the vast majority of free agents.

To draw a correlation, look at the NFL. The Cowboys and Redskins, once flagship organizations (much like the O's in their heyday) are now perennial under performers. Both have horrible owners who meddle in their team's affairs to the extent that they appear to negatively impact performance on field (like Angelos). Both have bad cultures in the locker room, a perception that players don't give 100% effort all the time and routinely have players fined and suspended for unacceptable behavior on and off the field. Neither had has any sustained success in the post-season for many years.

But both teams are routinely able to attract top name free agents because they overpay them relative to the market, despite all the negatives a player could use to justify not going to either city.

The reason the O's don't attract free agents is they simply aren't willing to pay them enough to get those deals done. The last time we had a big free agent haul (Tejada, Lopez, Palmeiro) we had more money to spend than anyone else and we spent it.

Sure back in the early 90s, the O's used to be a prime destination with 3 million fans a year, history of recent playoff success, a beautiful new ballpark, a number of marquee players and a competent front office. But none of those things were the primary reason free agents signed with the O's. It always has been and always will be the the size and duration of the contract offer that will drive the decisions of the vast majority of free agents.

If the O's offer Beltre the best contract by a significant margin, the man would be an absolute fool not to come here. He can live on the west coast after he retires. Right now, if he's smart about it he's going to maximize his earning potential and grab the most money and most guaranteed years he can get while he still is able to command a big payday. Anything else is secondary.

[Big Keys Fan]

No, you are still wrong.

The Orioles WILL NOT contend next year barring a minor miracle.

So, they need to make solid moves this offseason..trade for a buy low guy like Reynolds. Obtain a SS that is a huge upgrade.

The Orioles just need to greatly upgrade over the garbage they had last year..that and improvement from their young players will give them a huge boost. Then, next offseason, they can make a run at higher priced guys to put them over the top.

They shouldn't get rid of draft picks(unless they get Beltre or CC) either.

I dont typically agree with all of Jtrea's ideas... I do agree here and I believe that is why Showalter was brought on board...

With that said, how can you say they "WILL NOT contend?" Tampa went from 66 to 97 wins with no major additions just good young pitching... and if you look they moved there top pitching talent in edwin jackson and scott kazmir shortly after! On top of that I am willing to bet the AL East is down a notch next year due to age and defecting talent. Don't get me wrong I'm not putting us in the Playoffs but I am also not dismissing the idea.

What upgrades are you making outside of a .190 hitting 211K 3rd baseman??... who I do like BTW... Local VA boy that grew up with Zimmerman and the Uptons... Who is the huge SS upgrade out side of Hanley or Reyes... and you wouldn't want those because of having to trade... JJ Hardy? O Cabrera???? As for your garbage players statement! Who do you keep, release and sign thats better??? Scott and Wiggy were both decent... Itzturis was great with the leather and poor with the bat. Do we sign Crawford, Beltre or Werth and give up picks.... what is your game plan in waiting another year???? The FA class??? Please explain....

So if I understand you correctly... you want to sign stop gaps and let the younger talent work itself out in hopes we can lure a big time FA next off season? Have you not seen what this team has done in the past 13 years with that motto.... I think you are arguing just for the sake of speaking cause you contradict yourself on this one... sorry but just my opinion!

[Big Keys Fan]

And they will have very good starting pitching and could use one of the starters they do have to get another cheap, young offensive players.

They have never traded for a cheap young bat.... Vet bounce back signings and trading away young bats for young future pitching is there model.

They might have good SP but there BP is going to get picked apart in FA... Wheeler and Soriano will not be back and Qualls, Choate, and Benoit probably go else where.... they will need to figure out a whole new bullpen... which I am sure that you know isnt easy in MLB these days. Who do you have closing or even setting for the penny pinching Rays? As an O's fan I saw what a bad BP does to your starters!!!!!!

[Sports Guy]

First of all, let me say that it is very rare that i see a post that more all over the place than this one but I will try to answer you.

With that said, how can you say they "WILL NOT contend?" Tampa went from 66 to 97 wins with no major additions just good young pitching

I said it would take a minor miracle..and it would..as it did for Tampa.

On top of that I am willing to bet the AL East is down a notch next year due to age and defecting talent. Don't get me wrong I'm not putting us in the Playoffs but I am also not dismissing the idea.

The AL East will not be down..You will still have 2 teams winning 90+ games and 2 teams winning 80+ games...at least.

What upgrades are you making outside of a .190 hitting 211K 3rd baseman??... who I do like BTW... Local VA boy that grew up with Zimmerman and the Uptons... Who is the huge SS upgrade out side of Hanley or Reyes... and you wouldn't want those because of having to trade... JJ Hardy? O Cabrera????

Well, I have said that we should add tons of upgrades..Whethe rit be guys like LaRoche, DLee, Loney, etc.. at first..hardy/Furcal/Brignac/Bartlett/Cozart for SS, Reynolds/Beltre, etc...for third...Also I want to see us going after Rasmus and Upton. Those are all clear and obvious upgrades.

As for your garbage players statement! Who do you keep, release and sign thats better??? Scott and Wiggy were both decent... Itzturis was great with the leather and poor with the bat

.Wiggy and izzy aren't good...Scott is fine but should be traded. We also had guys like Atkins getting a lot of at bats last year...We had a lot of garbage players on this team getting a lot of playing time..If you watched them, you know this.

Do we sign Crawford, Beltre or Werth and give up picks.... what is your game plan in waiting another year???? The FA class??? Please explain....

I am all for CC or beltre but doubt we can get them..As for my plan and what i want...That should be easily figured out if you read this site.

So if I understand you correctly... you want to sign stop gaps and let the younger talent work itself out in hopes we can lure a big time FA next off season? Have you not seen what this team has done in the past 13 years with that motto

Its pretty apparent that you don't.

sorry but just my opinion!

Yet again proving that opinions can be wrong.

[Sports Guy]

They have never traded for a cheap young bat.... Vet bounce back signings and trading away young bats for young future pitching is there model.

But they have different needs now.

They might have good SP but there BP is going to get picked apart in FA...

Which just means they obtain a ton of picks in a great draft class.

Who do you have closing or even setting for the penny pinching Rays? As an O's fan I saw what a bad BP does to your starters!!!!!![

Probably Jacob McGee, who is a beast.

[Going Underground]

Willingham would be a great get, obviously depending on what the Nats want. I don't see them trading him, though, especially not to us.

Although Josh Willingham is hoping to sign a long-term extension to remain in Washington for a few more years, that seems unlikely to happen this winter, writes Adam Kilgore of the Washington Post. Willingham, who is under contract through 2011, will likely either receive a one-year contract from the Nationals or be traded.

"I think we're going to take him one year at a time, like we've been doing," said Nats GM Mike Rizzo. "That's the short answer. But things are fluid, and they could always change. We'll see what the season brings us."

Rizzo also told Kilgore that several teams have inquired about Willingham's availability, which is to be expected since "there's not a lot of [productive right-handed bats] out there." The Rockies are believed to be one of the clubs with some interest in the 31-year-old, according to Kilgore.

In October, when agent Matt Sosnick discussed the possibility of his client signing in Washington long-term, he opined that Willingham would be worth $10MM annually over multiple years on the open market.

As I have said for the last few weeks, I think the O's are one team that has also inquired. Would you pay him 10 million a year?

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/11/josh-willingham-drawing-interest-extension-unlikely.html

[Enjoy Terror]

Tampa went from 66 to 97 wins with no major additions just good young pitching...

Evan Longoria says "Hi".

I'll admit that half the reason the Rays did as well as they did was the bullpen being incredibly reliable, but upgrading Wigginton with Longoria was the other half. Zobrist, Garza and Barlett played well enough to balance out Shields and Pena coming back to earth.

[DrungoHazewood]

You don't give a player a 6-8 year deal to put you over the top. A player that has that kind of contract is a franchise building block.

100% backwards. The guys that'll sign six year deals are big time free agents coming off big years, but almost all of them are 30+ years old. So you get their best production at the beginning of the deal, and are crying the last 3-4 years when they're giving you league-average production or worse at $20M per.

The only way you give anyone a 6/150 kind of deal is if they're the piece that puts you in the playoffs this year, next year, and maybe the year after.

[Moose Milligan]

Again, you just don't understand how things work..at all.

Your overall general message is correct but the way you want to get there is awful.

Chances of you making an impact on his thought process?

100% cloudy with a high precipitation level of doubtful.

[Hank Scorpio]

Bump.

They don't want to come here.

[TGO]

Bump.

They don't want to come here.

Seriously. We can't get Adam freakin' LaRoche to sign. His last contract was $6M (4.5 and a 1.5 buyout) and from the sound of it we offered him over 3 times that.

[scOtt]

Bump.

They don't want to come here.

dnftt

Stop. Who would cross the Bridge of Death must answer me these questions three, ere the other side he see.