Orioles Payroll is a Slap in the Face to Fans

[FLBird]

How do you expect meaningful responses when you are so hostile in your responses?

You aren't simply stating the facts.

Are you being serious?

I simply stated the guy was overrated and a flood of Jeter supporters get on the bash wagon.

Was I the first to use the words "troll" or "idiot?"

I have only responded to others who started the crap.

Go back and read the posts before you say I'm hostile.

[mcpd]

Why? It's not your money. Well, in a way I suppose it is, in the sense that you may have bought ticket, paid a cable bill (i.e. MASN money), or bought a hat. The alternative to the team spending money is it going into the owner's pockets, though, and that's what's happening. An effort to win isn't really being made.

I'm shocked people are finding ways to defend this organization after all this time. I guess it's sort of like Stockholm Syndrome.

What happened this week? We acquired a guy who hit .198 last year and two utility infielders. I don't think any of those moves exactly set the baseball world on fire. I mean, I like Reynolds' power and on-base percentage, he's probably a good reclamation project to give a shot to, but it's not like acquiring a big ticket free agent or an All-Star or something through a trade. And Izturis in a utility role is probably an upgrade over Lugo, but we're talking about a ultility infielder. Meanwhile, the Red Sox keep doing what it takes to get even better than they already were last year -- and the Yankees probably aren't very far away from signing Cliff Lee.

Include these things in the salary cap, or have separate minor league/draft/intentional acquisitions caps.

Exactly. If the article was in fact outdated, the essential point still remains.

What agenda? I don't get it. We're all here because we're fans, right?

I am not saying that you in particular have an agenda, but if you think people on here don't nitpick information to bash Macphail or the front office then you haven't been reading this message board lately. There's nothing wrong with a little criticism but i think some people on here get a little carried away.

[frankpembleton]

Very thorough response.

Sorry - but how anyone can say with a straight face, "I'm shocked people are finding ways to bash this team."

Does that really require a thorough response? It's an absurd statement. This team deserves bashing and has for 13 years.

The moves the Orioles have made this offeseason have been solid. We have absolutely improved. Unfortunately, what matters is how the Orioles stack up against the rest of the AL East. That's the bottom line. We don't stack up at this point, and it appears we never will with ownership, economics, and an unbalanced schedule working against us. We have to play the hand given to us, and rather than rail against MLB (which is easy to do) we should hold ownership accountable for deploying the necessary resources that make us competitive.

I don't care if some things don't make fiscal sense at this point. We're never going to get out of the rut we are in without bringining in premium talent and doing some crazy expensive things. Does anyone really believe that we should have the same payroll in 2010 that we had in 1997? How does that make sense? We should be trying to sign Cliff Lee. We should have signed Teixera for whatever 200+ million dollar contract was required. We need to create a buzz so that fans start caring again. Who cares if it hamstrings us in the future. We've got no future without making these types of moves in a division like the AL East.

Go do something crazy and sign Cliff Lee to a 4 year 130 million dollar contract as someone suggested. Who cares - supposedly we've been banking all of this money for when "we are ready to compete." Why not compete in the next couple of years? We can't afford an additional 32 million on top of our 75 million dollar payroll? Really?

Just get something done. Make this franchise exciting.

[Crazysilver03]

Are you being serious?

I simply stated the guy was overrated and a flood of Jeter supporters get on the bash wagon.

Was I the first to use the words "troll" or "idiot?"

I have only responded to others who started the crap.

Go back and read the posts before you say I'm hostile.

The fact you feel the need to bring this stuff in to other threads is trolling.

SG stated it clearly. We accept and look forward to well structured arguments, but blatant blasting without substance doesn't fly.

[El Gordo]

Sorry - but how anyone can say with a straight face, "I'm shocked people are finding ways to bash this team."

Does that really require a thorough response? It's an absurd statement. This team deserves bashing and has for 13 years.

The moves the Orioles have made this offeseason have been solid. We have absolutely improved. Unfortunately, what matters is how the Orioles stack up against the rest of the AL East. That's the bottom line. We don't stack up at this point, and it appears we never will with ownership, economics, and an unbalanced schedule working against us. We have to play the hand given to us, and rather than rail against MLB (which is easy to do) we should hold ownership accountable for deploying the necessary resources that make us competitive.

I don't care if some things don't make fiscal sense at this point. We're never going to get out of the rut we are in without bringining in premium talent and doing some crazy expensive things. Does anyone really believe that we should have the same payroll in 2010 that we had in 1997? How does that make sense? We should be trying to sign Cliff Lee. We should have signed Teixera for whatever 200+ million dollar contract was required. We need to create a buzz so that fans start caring again. Who cares if it hamstrings us in the future. We've got no future without making these types of moves in a division like the AL East.

Go do something crazy and sign Cliff Lee to a 4 year 130 million dollar contract as someone suggested. Who cares - supposedly we've been banking all of this money for when "we are ready to compete." Why not compete in the next couple of years? We can't afford an additional 32 million on top of our 75 million dollar payroll? Really?

Just get something done. Make this franchise exciting.

But that's the trouble with these silly notions. They aren't realistic. Lee is being offered 160M from the MFY's. Why would he take a 130M and less years from B'more? If the O's want Lee they would have to blow the Yankees out of the water. Would that bring them any closer to contention? 200M for one player. It's silly.

[Eddie_Murray33]

The Visionary.

Nice seats!

What you can't tell is there's actually an Orioles-Royals game going on on the field...

I jest. I jest.:wedge:

[BaltimoreTerp]

No need to "prove" myself to you, for sure!:laughlol:

You wear a Jeter jersey also?

Nah, I'm not a closet Yankee fan like you who needs to overcompensate for your deep-set feelings by taking every opportunity to make outlandish statements and either react strongly to those who try and post fair responses or act stunned when attacked yourself.

You're probably stroking your #2 in pinstripes as we speak.

Actually, you're probably an actual Yankee fan or Sox fan trying to screw with us, which may or may not be worse.

[maybe2050]

People keep saying the O's are too cheap to spend on top tier FA. I suppose that means they are advocating spending much more than 140 M for a Crawford, because if it took that much to get him in Boston how much would he have cost the O's? At some point none of them are worth the rididculous money it would take to get them to play here. That's not cheap, it's merely sane.

No, people keeping using Crawford and Werth as examples when the logical people do complain. I can't remember on person on here even once complaining that we didn't sign Crawford or Werth's obvious crazy contracts. But I do feel adding a starting pitcher for at least $10 million a year, a 1st baseman for $9 million a year, and a left fielder or DH for like $7 million a year is not gonna break the bank and will keep us pretty much still near last in payroll in the American League East, but gain at least a little respect back, as well as filling some seats at OPACY

[Crazysilver03]

No, people keeping using Crawford and Werth as examples when the logical people do complain. I can't remember on person on here even once complaining that we didn't sign Crawford or Werth's obvious crazy contracts. But I do feel adding a starting pitcher for at least $10 million a year, a 1st baseman for $9 million a year, and a left fielder or DH for like $7 million a year is not gonna break the bank and will keep us pretty much still last in payroll (by a long shot) in the American League East, but gain at least a little respect back, as well as filling some seats at OPACY

The Tampa Rays are going to have the lowest payroll in the division, period. When the dust settles and they have traded their expensive players, they will be down in the $50-55M, with possibly something as high as $60M.

The Orioles are already over $60M, at close to $66M before we add anyone else. There has been talk of taking on another salary dump/veteran starter, such as Aaron Cook or Kenshin Kawakami.

[maybe2050]

2011 Payrolls & Signings

2010 Signings & Remaining Free Agents

Minor League FA: Batters & Pitchers

Recent Transactions / $ amounts are millions

Click team ID's for detailed summaries

Mouse over headers for column explanations

American Lg

Tm # Pyrl Est

TBR 5 $16.3 $55.9

NYY 12 $159.5 $169.7

BOS 16 $115.2 $134.4

TOR 7 $37.9 $84.5

BAL 6 $34.6 $63.8

Cen # Pyrl Est

MIN 10 $75.2 $101.9

CHW 15 $101.0 $120.3

DET 10 $83.8 $100.9

CLE 5 $28.1 $53.8

KCR 9 $43.2 $75.4

Wst # Pyrl Est

TEX 7 $38.9 $62.5

OAK 7 $29.6 $70.0

LAA 9 $92.5 $124.9

SEA 7 $59.0 $100.5

National Lg

Tm # Pyrl Est

PHI 17 $142.2 $152.5

ATL 12 $70.8 $96.3

FLA 6 $33.8 $80.3

NYM 10 $114.3 $135.9

WSN 5 $23.4 $76.9

Cen # Pyrl Est

CIN 10 $52.4 $72.3

STL 12 $99.1 $111.1

MIL 6 $32.0 $65.2

HOU 6 $40.7 $86.1

CHC 11 $112.7 $141.0

PIT 7 $17.9 $43.9

Wst # Pyrl Est

SFG 11 $91.5 $119.1

SDP 2 $4.3 $38.0

COL 11 $70.2 $99.1

LAD 12 $82.0 $102.8

ARI 6 $24.6 $68.2

All values are estimates and should not be

used by GM's for actual team planning.

[epic]

No, people keeping using Crawford and Werth as examples when the logical people do complain. I can't remember on person on here even once complaining that we didn't sign Crawford or Werth's obvious crazy contracts. But I do feel adding a starting pitcher for at least $10 million a year, a 1st baseman for $9 million a year, and a left fielder or DH for like $7 million a year is not gonna break the bank and will keep us pretty much still near last in payroll in the American League East, but gain at least a little respect back, as well as filling some seats at OPACY

I think it's logical that people don't want to be paying Jayson Werth 20M/yr for his age 35-38 seasons.

Having a high payroll doesn't equal success. We can spend the money we just need to do it logically, and busting our load on someone like Werth or Lee isn't a smart thing to do in our situation. Would you seriously be okay with paying a 32 year old pitcher over 20 million a season for the next 7 seasons?

[Crazysilver03]

2011 Payrolls & Signings

2010 Signings & Remaining Free Agents

Minor League FA: Batters & Pitchers

Recent Transactions / $ amounts are millions

Click team ID's for detailed summaries

Mouse over headers for column explanations

American Lg

Tm # Pyrl Est

TBR 5 $16.3 $55.9

NYY 12 $159.5 $169.7

BOS 16 $115.2 $134.4

TOR 7 $37.9 $84.5

BAL 6 $34.6 $63.8

Cen # Pyrl Est

MIN 10 $75.2 $101.9

CHW 15 $101.0 $120.3

DET 10 $83.8 $100.9

CLE 5 $28.1 $53.8

KCR 9 $43.2 $75.4

Wst # Pyrl Est

TEX 7 $38.9 $62.5

OAK 7 $29.6 $70.0

LAA 9 $92.5 $124.9

SEA 7 $59.0 $100.5

National Lg

Tm # Pyrl Est

PHI 17 $142.2 $152.5

ATL 12 $70.8 $96.3

FLA 6 $33.8 $80.3

NYM 10 $114.3 $135.9

WSN 5 $23.4 $76.9

Cen # Pyrl Est

CIN 10 $52.4 $72.3

STL 12 $99.1 $111.1

MIL 6 $32.0 $65.2

HOU 6 $40.7 $86.1

CHC 11 $112.7 $141.0

PIT 7 $17.9 $43.9

Wst # Pyrl Est

SFG 11 $91.5 $119.1

SDP 2 $4.3 $38.0

COL 11 $70.2 $99.1

LAD 12 $82.0 $102.8

ARI 6 $24.6 $68.2

All values are estimates and should not be

used by GM's for actual team planning.

Please make sure to cite where you are getting this from. For those wondering, it is from the front page of BaseballReference.

What is your point with this?

[Roll Tide]

People keep saying the O's are too cheap to spend on top tier FA. I suppose that means they are advocating spending much more than 140 M for a Crawford, because if it took that much to get him in Boston how much would he have cost the O's? At some point none of them are worth the rididculous money it would take to get them to play here. That's not cheap, it's merely sane.

The names change the result is the same.

[BrunoCherrytown]

Are you being serious?

I simply stated the guy was overrated and a flood of Jeter supporters get on the bash wagon.

Was I the first to use the words "troll" or "idiot?"

I have only responded to others who started the crap.

Go back and read the posts before you say I'm hostile.

I have heard from a reliable source that Derek Jeter has cooties.

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6ylxWcwkUM?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6ylxWcwkUM?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

[CharmCityCrab]

Is there ever going to be a point where people realize that its no how much you spend but what you spend it on?

I don't make the mistake of believing that spending money automatically equates to winning. We've certainly seen teams make big free agent signings and flop.

Having said that, though, at some point, and I think we long ago reached that point here in Baltimore, it is important to maintain a high payroll to send the message to the fans and potential future player acquisitions that you care about winning. Even though there isn't an exact correlation between spending and winning, the consistent winners (i.e. the sort of teams that stick around somewhere toward the top of the standings a decade or more at a time) do tend to spend, and both the fans and the players are aware of that.

I'm basically a lifelong Orioles fan, ever since I started following baseball as a child. If I were a star player in my prime hitting free agency, though, I wouldn't sign with the Orioles. I'd take less money to go to a winner, or get a big contract from a team like the Nats, knowing that they'll at least commit some resources toward building a team around me and that I'd be well compensated. It's not just that the Orioles are a losing team, it's that they're a losing team who's ownership and GM seem committed to a low payroll, which means that at best they might put together a good season or two at some point before having to dismantle in order to keep their payroll low (i.e. Marlins, Twins, etc. at various different times in their histories) assuming they don't change their approach.

I am not saying that you in particular have an agenda, but if you think people on here don't nitpick information to bash Macphail or the front office then you haven't been reading this message board lately. There's nothing wrong with a little criticism but i think some people on here get a little carried away.

I see what you're saying, but the question I'd pose is this: At what point do you think it would be appropriate to be frustrated enough to bash the owner and the front office? 20 losing seasons? 30? 40? Payroll below $70m? $50m? $30m?

I'll certainly grant that I sometimes tend toward a curmudgeon type approach toward a lot of different things, sports included at times. Often if I am too critical of the Ravens or something in the heat of passion after a loss, though, within a few days I can say to myself "You know, over all, this is a darn good organization and I'm very content over all with the type of seasons we usually have.". Even in years where the Ravens have had losing records, I've basically known that a losing season here or there is unavoidable, and that they will probably bounce back in a year or two.

The Orioles just don't put in enough resources for me to have that same positive attitude toward them, though. I'd like to have it, but the logic center of my brain tells me I shouldn't.

as well as classifying Hardy as a utilityman

To be fair, I have to admit that the Hardy slipped my mind when I said "two utility men". Obviously Hardy is going to be the starting shortstop. The two guys I was thinking of and categorizing as utility men were Izturis and Harris.

I don't really have an issue with trading for Hardy if it's looked at in an isolated way -- i.e. he sounds like an alright shortstop, and he should represent an improvement over the production we got from that position last year. It's just that he's clearly not a superstar or a "big" acquisition -- and we're not making those sort of moves at all, anywhere.