Palmeiro just digging his grave deeper

[nadecir]

Sorry I am getting to this thread a little late. I wanted to add a few details from the Mitchell report about Rafael Palmeiro that add a little to this thread.

The Mitchell Report http://assets.espn.go.com/media/pdf/071213/mitchell_report.pdf'>http://assets.espn.go.com/media/pdf/071213/mitchell_report.pdf said:

In his book, Juiced, Canseco claimed that he had personal knowledge that Palmeiro and two other players illegally used steroids under his supervision shortly after he joined the Texas Rangers in 1992.

On March 17, 2005, Rafael Palmeiro testified to Congress with this statement: Let me start by telling you this: I have never used steroids, period. I do not know how to say it any more clearly than that. Never. The reference to me in Canseco’s book is absolutely false.

During the arbitration challenging the positive steroid test, Palmeiro had testified about receiving the vitamin B12 but did not assert that he believed it was the reason for his positive drug test.

According to the House Committee’s report, Tejada told investigators that he generally brought injectable vitamin B12 with him to the United States when he returned each season from the Dominican Republic.

Tejada said that he gave vitamin B12 to three teammates during the 2005 season, Palmeiro and Players A and B. In his own interview with the congressional investigation, Player A said that he injected Tejada with vitamin B12 approximately 40-45 times during the 2004 season and approximately 30-35 times during the 2005 season until July, when he decided to stop doing so.

Player A gave the investigators a vial of the vitamin B12 that he had received from Tejada, which was tested and found not to contain any banned substances.

Bigbie also told us that he had conversations with Palmeiro while they were both playing with the Orioles in which Palmeiro asked him about his source of steroids and human growth hormone (the source was Kirk Radomski) and how the substances made him feel. Bigbie said that Palmeiro denied in those conversations that he had ever used performance enhancing substances himself.

So in order for one to believe Palmiero never intentionally took performance enhancing drugs, one has to believe:

1. that Jose Canseco's accusations about Palmiero's previous use of steriods were lies. Canseco published his book before Palmeiro's congressional testimony and before Palmeiro tested positively for Winstrol, a performance enhancing drug. Canseco's book was published on February 14, 2005. Palmiero testifies in Congress on March 17, 2005. On May 3 or 4, 2005, Palmeiro takes a MLB administered drug test. On May 19, he is informed that he tests positive for PEDs. On August 1, 2005 Palmiero's grievance is denied and he is suspended for 10 days by Major League Baseball.

Canseco seems to have been a fortune teller with the Palmeiro accusation in his book. If anything, Canseco has gained in credibility since publishing his book in 2005.

2. if Palmeiro did indeed get a tainted B-12 syringe with Winstrol from Tejada, he must have been a really unlucky guy.

About 45 days after testifying in Congress, Palmeiro gets injected by his wife with a syringe that Miguel Tejada brought in from the Dominican Republic, despite knowing the high level of scrutiny going on concerning PEDs at this time.

Tejada himself never tests positively for a PED, even after getting injections at least 70 times with these B-12 syringes brought in from the Dominican Republic. Tejada himself denied giving Palmeiro anything other than B-12. "It doesn't bother me because I'm not guilty. I've done nothing wrong. I just gave him B-12, and B-12 is legal," Tejada said. "You don't get caught for B-12."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2169007

Players A and B never tested positive for a PED after getting these syringes from Tejada. The B-12 bottle that Player A gave to investigators did not have any traces of any PED despite being tested multiple times.

Tejada brought many bottles of B-12 to the U.S. from the Dominican Republic, but Palmeiro seems to be the only one to get a tainted bottle.

3. that Palmeiro didn't immediately question the B-12 shot when he received word of the failed test for some reason.

When Palmeiro was initially told he failed a steroid test, he was asked by the players' union if there was a substance he might have taken by accident. Palmeiro didn't mention the B-12.

Palmeiro mentioned the B-12 injection at his arbitration hearing, but did NOT assert it was the cause of his positive test at the hearing.

It is not until Wednesday November 10, 2005, more than 6 months after the failed drug test, that Palmeiro's lawyers release a statement in which he takes responsibility for his failed test and offers the explanation of a tainted B-12 shot for the first time publicly.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2219460

4. Larry Bigbie's testimony about Palmeiro asking him about his source of steriods and HGH were innocent questions.

4. despite ruining Palmeiro personally and professionally, and offers of help from Peter Angelos, Palmeiro was never interested in pursuing any legal action against Canseco, or the suppliers of the tainted B-12 for some reason. It seems that if Palmeiro was so adamant that he never used PEDs, he would have a good case to pursue claims that could help restore his credibility and get a large damage judgment. To my knowledge, Palmeiro never offered to take a lie detector test about his claims that would have helped bolster his credibility also.

We will probably never definitively know the truth about Palmeiro. But you can see why the court of public opinion and the baseball writers have already made their judgment against Palmeiro.

[24fps]

One of the things I find interesting is people's definition of what a PED is. Koufax took a bunch of crap-cortisone and other stuff to kill the pain- to go out and pitch...how is that not a PED? If it wasn't for the drugs, there's no way he'd be able to reel off those seasons he did in the mid 60's.

Thats as much as a performance enhancer as anything else, IMO. It might not have afforded him the ability to swat home run records, but it did allow him to go out and dominate hitters at a prodigious clip. If everything was "au natural" as the sportswriters would love for them to be, there's no way Koufax is a Hall of Famer. He'd be a mere blip in the history of the Dodgers, perhaps their Steve Dalkowski.

How come no one ever mentions these things? How come no one mentions a cortisone (which is a steroid, IIRC, just not the big bad boogyman kind) shot as something that's a PED?

Corticosteroids (cortisone) reduce inflammation. Anabolic steroids promote muscle growth.

The distinction usually made between cortisone and anabolic steroid use by baseball players, is that cortisone is performance enabling (no increase in baseline ability), while anabolic steroids are performance enhancing.

[Flosman]

One of the things I find interesting is people's definition of what a PED is. Koufax took a bunch of crap-cortisone and other stuff to kill the pain- to go out and pitch...how is that not a PED? If it wasn't for the drugs, there's no way he'd be able to reel off those seasons he did in the mid 60's.

Thats as much as a performance enhancer as anything else, IMO. It might not have afforded him the ability to swat home run records, but it did allow him to go out and dominate hitters at a prodigious clip. If everything was "au natural" as the sportswriters would love for them to be, there's no way Koufax is a Hall of Famer. He'd be a mere blip in the history of the Dodgers, perhaps their Steve Dalkowski.

How come no one ever mentions these things? How come no one mentions a cortisone (which is a steroid, IIRC, just not the big bad boogyman kind) shot as something that's a PED?

This is the point I have tried to make several times in this thread. Koufax probably was not aware of steroids per say, but the Dodgers Doctors probably were. I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility that players that were struggling to stay on the field were in fact given what is now considered PEDs. In the late 40s and 50s the USO team had an official program developing and using PEDs to increase sports proformance. These Doctors were on the cutting edge of sports medicine. Are we to believe these doctors were not the type of Doctors these elite players sought out when they were having problems? Baseball men may have thought lifting was not compatible with baseball, but the sports medicine and training professions would have had a different view almost certainly. When a player is at the point that they see the end coming I think it is almost a certainty that players sought these experts. These guys were like the Doctor Jobe of that era and Steroid therapy is and was considered a legitimate course for rehabbing tendon and ortho injuries.

I guess my postition comes down to this. Lets stop the witch hunt. The use of these drugs was promoted by MLB. Players were not violating the spirit of the rules of the day and it is impossible to say who did what. So Big Mac for example should get in based on what he did compared to his PEERS. Just like Raffy should also. Currently if a player is stupid and tries to use on the cheap they will get caught and won't put up the numbers because they will be suspended. I singled out players on the cheap because the Balco labs are still beating tests without question. The developers of the high end drugs are always just ahead of the testers, so I am sure there will be rich players that will use the services of these labs for as long as MLB is giving multi year big money contracts.

[24fps]

This is the point I have tried to make several times in this thread. Koufax probably was not aware of steroids per say, but the Dodgers Doctors probably were. I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility that players that were struggling to stay on the field were in fact given what is now considered PEDs. In the late 40s and 50s the USO team had an official program developing and using PEDs to increase sports proformance. These Doctors were on the cutting edge of sports medicine. Are we to believe these doctors were not the type of Doctors these elite players sought out when they were having problems? Baseball men may have thought lifting was not compatible with baseball, but the sports medicine and training professions would have had a different view almost certainly. When a player is at the point that they see the end coming I think it is almost a certainty that players sought these experts. These guys were like the Doctor Jobe of that era and Steroid therapy is and was considered a legitimate course for rehabbing tendon and ortho injuries.

I guess my postition comes down to this. Lets stop the witch hunt. The use of these drugs was promoted by MLB. Players were not violating the spirit of the rules of the day and it is impossible to say who did what. So Big Mac for example should get in based on what he did compared to his PEERS. Just like Raffy should also. Currently if a player is stupid and tries to use on the cheap they will get caught and won't put up the numbers because they will be suspended. I singled out players on the cheap because the Balco labs are still beating tests without question. The developers of the high end drugs are always just ahead of the testers, so I am sure there will be rich players that will use the services of these labs for as long as MLB is giving multi year big money contracts.

Among many other things, MLB was guilty of neglect and failure to act in a timely fashion. The Players Association was guilty of obstructionist behavior and not addressing the concerns of a significant portion of it's membership. None of this constitutes promotion of steroid use.

There's an awful lot of conjecture in your post. Below is a link to a page from a rather long ESPN article from about five years ago. It's the story of Tom House, an indifferent relief pitcher, who later was pitching coach for the Texas Rangers from 1985-1992. House took steroids in the early '70's to no avail (in baseball terms, at least - physically he got a lot bigger with unfortunate consequences). His story indicates that he started to notice the effects of widespread steroid use only beginning in the mid to late '80's, something he would be in a position to recognize from his own experience.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=steroidsExc&num=18

[Flosman]

MLB was guilty of neglect and failure to act in a timely fashion. The Players Association was guilty of obstructionist behavior and not addressing the concerns of a significant portion of it's constituency. None of this constitutes promotion of steroid use.

There's an awful lot of conjecture in your post. Below is a link to a page from a rather long ESPN article from about five years ago. It's the story of Tom House, an indifferent relief pitcher, who later was pitching coach for the Texas Rangers from 1985-1992. House took steroids in the early '70's to no avail (in baseball terms, at least - he got physically huge). His story indicates that he started to notice the effects of steroid use only beginning in the mid to late '80's, and he would be in a position to know from his own experience.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=steroidsExc&num=18

It is great that you use an example of exactly what I say likely happened to "prove" it did not happen. I think it is more likely that many more players than just House used and more players did later as programs developed tailored to baseball players and the players shared the information. The example that you provide is a guy that was later in management for baseball and made a living teaching players what it takes to make it in the Majors. You know teach the young guys what worked for him. You say he was nothing much as a player. I say he likely was a AAAA guy that scratched out a career by doing what it took to compete. I don't think many folks realize what happens to a player when you discover your real talent level. You spend your entire young life being the best player on the field and work your butt off to make it. Then the reality of at the elite level you are not the best player anymore. You look for anything that will give you the edge. I don't think for a second baseball players are any different than the football players I played with. If you want to live in a fantasy world where the Bash Brothers and there actions were not promoted then fine. Coaches at the elite level lose jobs for the players not being successful on the field. A lot of coaches won't say take this or that but they do know the guys getting results and direct players to get with so and so and find out what is working for them. Jose and Big Mac without question guided players and I highly doubt they found this stuff out without help from the players before them. If you spend time in the locker room of any elite team and you are accepted as a non outsider you would find out the truth. Coaches expect players to be superman and players try to give the coaches what they want. Without question this sets up the promotion of PEDs.

This is why baseball needs a commissioner with the powers Judge Landis had. If the use of PEDs were a real problem in the eyes of the commissioner then he would be able to do something to curb their use. Without worrying about the CBA or the owners loving the revenue that the big numbers provided.

[mweb]

Corticosteroids (cortisone) reduce inflammation. Anabolic steroids promote muscle growth.

The distinction usually made between cortisone and anabolic steroid use by baseball players, is that cortisone is performance enabling (no increase in baseline ability), while anabolic steroids are performance enhancing.

But players often take steroids for performance enabling purposes since they can help one get back from injury.

[mweb]

One of the things I find interesting is people's definition of what a PED is. Koufax took a bunch of crap-cortisone and other stuff to kill the pain- to go out and pitch...how is that not a PED? If it wasn't for the drugs, there's no way he'd be able to reel off those seasons he did in the mid 60's.

Thats as much as a performance enhancer as anything else, IMO. It might not have afforded him the ability to swat home run records, but it did allow him to go out and dominate hitters at a prodigious clip. If everything was "au natural" as the sportswriters would love for them to be, there's no way Koufax is a Hall of Famer. He'd be a mere blip in the history of the Dodgers, perhaps their Steve Dalkowski.

How come no one ever mentions these things? How come no one mentions a cortisone (which is a steroid, IIRC, just not the big bad boogyman kind) shot as something that's a PED?

For one because they think steroids are a lot worse than they actually are mostly due to them being illegal and hearing a few stories of young people having serious problems related to them along with a few high profile stories of adults abusing steroids and then having serious issues.

The other main reason imo is a lot of people mostly or completely blame steroids for the HR boom and they don't like how legends like Aaron, Ruth, Maris, Mantle, Mays, etc are being diminished by these numbers.

[mweb]

Among many other things, MLB was guilty of neglect and failure to act in a timely fashion. The Players Association was guilty of obstructionist behavior and not addressing the concerns of a significant portion of it's membership. None of this constitutes promotion of steroid use.

There's an awful lot of conjecture in your post. Below is a link to a page from a rather long ESPN article from about five years ago. It's the story of Tom House, an indifferent relief pitcher, who later was pitching coach for the Texas Rangers from 1985-1992. House took steroids in the early '70's to no avail (in baseball terms, at least - physically he got a lot bigger with unfortunate consequences). His story indicates that he started to notice the effects of widespread steroid use only beginning in the mid to late '80's, something he would be in a position to recognize from his own experience.http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=steroidsExc&num=18

No, his story suggests steroids were used a lot well before that:

Former major league pitcher Tom House used steroids during his career and said performance-enhancing drugs were widespread in baseball in the 1960s and 1970s, the San Francisco Chronicle reported Tuesday.

House, perhaps best known for catching Hank Aaron's 715th home run ball in 1974 in the Atlanta Braves' bullpen, said he and several teammates used amphetamines, human growth hormone and "whatever steroid" they could find in order to keep up with the competition.

"I pretty much popped everything cold turkey," House said. "We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses. That was the '60s, when nobody knew. The good thing is, we know now. There's a lot more research and understanding."

House, 58, estimated that six or seven pitchers per team were at least experimenting with steroids or human growth hormone. He said players talked about losing to opponents using more effective drugs.

"We didn't get beat, we got out-milligrammed," he said. "And when you found out what they were taking, you started taking them."

[sangar]

No, his story suggests steroids were used a lot well before that:

Considering that Hank Aaron was one of House's teammates during the early 70's and was having some of his best years while in his late 30's is there a 'guilt by association'?

[24fps]

No, his story suggests steroids were used a lot well before that:

Interesting article which I hadn't read until now. I looks like there are competing Tom House stories. The one that I've been referencing has the following quotes:

Once weight training got into baseball, then came steroids and growth hormones. I started noticing it in the late '80s when I was the pitching coach for the Texas Rangers [1985-92]. Players were getting bigger and bigger. The ones who were using weight training in conjunction with steroids were getting exponentially bigger

My pitchers weren't doing steroids because they had heard the lecture from me many times about nutrition, supplements and enhancements. They heard my story, they saw my knees and they knew not to build bulk.

Enhancements have been around forever. In the '70s, it was greenies....In the '80s, it was cocaine. Now, it's steroids.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=steroidsExc&num=18

The ESPN article was written in 2005 which looks to be around the same time as the USA Today piece.

[Moose Milligan]

Corticosteroids (cortisone) reduce inflammation. Anabolic steroids promote muscle growth.

The distinction usually made between cortisone and anabolic steroid use by baseball players, is that cortisone is performance enabling (no increase in baseline ability), while anabolic steroids are performance enhancing.

Yeah, but if a guy like Koufax has an arthritic elbow, that is his baseline. And he needs something to help get him out on the field. Koufax could not perform with an arthritic elbow...if he could, I think it's a safe bet that he couldn't perform as well as he could with the assistance of cortisone. I don't think there's much of a difference when it's something that allows a player to perform when he otherwise couldn't.

This is the point I have tried to make several times in this thread. Koufax probably was not aware of steroids per say, but the Dodgers Doctors probably were. I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility that players that were struggling to stay on the field were in fact given what is now considered PEDs. In the late 40s and 50s the USO team had an official program developing and using PEDs to increase sports proformance. These Doctors were on the cutting edge of sports medicine. Are we to believe these doctors were not the type of Doctors these elite players sought out when they were having problems? Baseball men may have thought lifting was not compatible with baseball, but the sports medicine and training professions would have had a different view almost certainly. When a player is at the point that they see the end coming I think it is almost a certainty that players sought these experts. These guys were like the Doctor Jobe of that era and Steroid therapy is and was considered a legitimate course for rehabbing tendon and ortho injuries.

I guess my postition comes down to this. Lets stop the witch hunt. The use of these drugs was promoted by MLB. Players were not violating the spirit of the rules of the day and it is impossible to say who did what. So Big Mac for example should get in based on what he did compared to his PEERS. Just like Raffy should also. Currently if a player is stupid and tries to use on the cheap they will get caught and won't put up the numbers because they will be suspended. I singled out players on the cheap because the Balco labs are still beating tests without question. The developers of the high end drugs are always just ahead of the testers, so I am sure there will be rich players that will use the services of these labs for as long as MLB is giving multi year big money contracts.

Agreed on all points. I used to be very anti-PED, used to be against guys like Clemens and Bonds getting in. Now I just don't care anymore, primarily because Bonds and Clemens are jerks and they've dug themselves into holes. I won't be irate if they don't get into the HoF, they hurt themselves by being jerks and by lying about it. Acting the way they have hasn't done them any favors for their candidacy and I won't be upset if they don't get in...if they do get in, that's fine as well. I really don't care anymore, though I do find the conversations interesting.

[sangar]

Yeah, but if a guy like Koufax has an arthritic elbow, that is his baseline. And he needs something to help get him out on the field. Koufax could not perform with an arthritic elbow...if he could, I think it's a safe bet that he couldn't perform as well as he could with the assistance of cortisone. I don't think there's much of a difference when it's something that allows a player to perform when he otherwise couldn't.

Agreed on all points. I used to be very anti-PED, used to be against guys like Clemens and Bonds getting in. Now I just don't care anymore, primarily because Bonds and Clemens are jerks and they've dug themselves into holes. I won't be irate if they don't get into the HoF, they hurt themselves by being jerks and by lying about it. Acting the way they have hasn't done them any favors for their candidacy and I won't be upset if they don't get in...if they do get in, that's fine as well. I really don't care anymore, though I do find the conversations interesting.

Look up Jerk in the Dictionary and you'll see a picture of Ty Cobb. Aside from that I agree with not caring and interesting conversations.

[mweb]

Considering that Hank Aaron was one of House's teammates during the early 70's and was having some of his best years while in his late 30's is there a 'guilt by association'?

Well if Tony had responded to this post:

So I suppose you have a big problem with Hank Aaron's peak lasting til he was 39 including having his best hr year by far (per AB) at age 37 and then beating that at age 39?

With something like this:

"Holy Crap, you too mweb???? You are using Aaron as a comparison for Bagwell? Really?"

Then I could have used his own guilt by association argument against him with the House quote. Plus, Aaron used greenies. So basically that would have gone in my favor.

However, while I think there is good reason to think Aaron may have used steroids, I wouldn't call him guilty of it because that's absurd imo. There is no reason why he or Bagwell should be kept out due to suspicion like that.

Now I don't think guys should be kept out even if they're known users, but that's a different matter.

The points of the House thing is that guilt by association is a poor approach, steroids have been used in baseball for a lot longer than many think, and I'd be shocked if there's not multiple guys currently in the HOF that used steroids.

[mweb]

Interesting article which I hadn't read until now. I looks like there are competing Tom House stories. The one that I've been referencing has the following quotes:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=steroidsExc&num=18

The ESPN article was written in 2005 which looks to be around the same time as the USA Today piece.

There are more articles on House that says the same stuff of the article I linked to. Plus, even in the article you linked to, he says he used steroids in the 70's and they were easy to get.

Now I'm sure steroids became more prevalent in the 80's and weightlifting became more common as well, so I think that's what he's referring to.

[SrMeowMeow]

I mean, the hilarious part is that steroids weren't even banned for much of baseball's history.