It's time for Andy to get "MacPhailed"

[eddie83]

Maybe...I agree with you that things wouldn't look as bleak if we were in another division. I have consistently said that we are the furthest team away from contending in all of the majors and that for us to contend consistenly, a top 5 organization must be built. That is where the division issue comes into play. But right now, they aren't sniffing the playoffs anywhere.

8-11 vs TB and Toronto though Tony. Its not just Boston and NY.

I am sorry but I will continue to say that using the division as an excuse is nothing more than a crutch.

The Orioles have dug their own hole...They have created their own bad luck.

You know that this is a tough division and that things are unfair...So, knowing that, why don't you do what you should to contend with the big boys?

If MLB adds a wild card next year the minimum requirement that they would have to have is to finish in third place ahead of Toronto and Tampa. Do you think it is nearly as daunting a task? Then the question is if you can do that and you are better than the Central and West's second place team you are in the postseason.

I am not saying that this would be easy, it wouldn't be but I would think nobody would be happier than the players. It also would give fans increased hope as well.

[eddie83]

Building through free agency is moronic though. The FAs aren't why this team blows.

I never said they should, but the point of being able to use FA as a usefull tool is very difficult here.

[MikeAD]

Building through free agency is moronic though. The FAs aren't why this team blows.

Its not even in the top three problems. The Red Sox and Yankees can trade off players and can afford to take a hit when a player tanks because they have talent in their organization. They invest internationally, they draft well, and they bring in good players. Tampa is a model franchise at this and they rarely bring in a costly Free Agent. Toronto's system is worlds ahead of ours as well. That's my overall beef with the way the teams been run. AM has done some good things and hes polished the turd alot, but end of the day or overall organization is still a big pile of crap. We have some nice young players in the system but they are few and far between.

[MikeAD]

I never said they should, but the point of being able to use FA as a usefull tool is very difficult here.

You're missing the point though. Adding a FA or several won't make you a respectable or competitive organization when it is weak top to bottom. You've got to have good young players to fill those positions down the road and give your flexibility (among other things).

[nate22]

Toronto's system got a big boost through trades.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/organization-top-10-prospects/2011/2610895.html

Heading into this season, 4 of their top prospects were acquired through trades with the other one being their top pick from last year. Those rankings were published before they traded Shaun Marcum for Brett Lawrie so that would mean that 5 of their top 6 prospects were acquired through trades.

Drabek via Halladay trade

McGuire via the draft

Gose via Brett Wallace trade (Wallace was acquired in a round about way via the Halladay trade)

D'Arnaud via Halladay trade

Stewart via Rolen trade

Lawrie via Marcum trade.

My point is that in a matter of 3 moves Halladay, Marcum and Rolen, the Jays boosted up their system.

[Sports Guy]

I never said they should, but the point of being able to use FA as a usefull tool is very difficult here.

Yes it is...but its their own fault.

[Bradysburns]

4 years ago the Orioles were floundering, and rumors were spreading about Sam Perlozzo's status as manager.

Out of the blue though, Peter Angelos hired Andy MacPhail to be the President of Baseball Operations and made Mike Flanagan and Jim Duquette glorified coffee runners.

Perlozzo was fired, but it was the hiring of MacPhail that was to signify the "shakeup" of the front office. Flanagan remained employed by the Orioles for the duration of his contract in some unknown capacity while Jim Duquette quit at the end of the year.

Here we are now 4 years later under the magnificent plan to "grow the arms and buy the bats." and we are just about in the same place. Our farm system is just about the same and the bats have been bargain bin specials. There is no vision right now and the club just seems content to just continue to plug holes and hope for the best on a year-to-year basis.

It's time for PGA to once again dethrone our GM and relegate him to the background. Maybe he can sell sweater vests in the Orioles team store. John Hart could be a possiblity IMO as his contract was made with the previous ownership group and not this one, so they might be willing to let him out of it. In any case, it's time for a change at the top so that we have some coherent vision heading into this offseason instead of scrambling for a GM and then trying to implement their plan.

At the end of the year, he should go bye-bye. He's done some good for the franchise. But the next guy needs to come in and complete the job - starting with new scouting and personnel people. What we need is huge production from the Caribbean and Asia, not just one guy with a multi-day pass to the Tokyo Holiday Inn and an iPhone camera. We need to ditch the "just draft a whole bunch of pitchers all the time" philosophy and take a balanced approach to the draft - selecting the best players available, regardless of position. And at the same time, we need to start demanding wins at the MLB level starting now.

If the Marlins can, so can we. They don't use second-tier market as an excuse to not compete with Atlanta and New York. We shouldn't use it as an excuse either - pretending that 5-year plans really make sense because we don't deserve to win now. That's BS. If you're not trying to win your division every single year, regardless - you're wasting your time and you're making excuses and you're rationalizing mediocrity - IMO.

[Stotle]

What about Markakis and Roberts, what is the difference.

I don't think there is a difference. Obviously the two of them could have elected to go to another division or to the Yanks or Sox but decided to stay with Baltimore.

[ccbird]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. If you think competing in the AL East doesn't dissuade some free agents then don't know what to say. I agree that the Orioles have stunk over the last 13 years for a lot of reasons, but acting like being in the AL East isn't part of the reason just doesn't make sense to me. Why would you want to join a team in a Divisions where two teams have dominated over the last ten years and have payrolls that suggest they will continue to do so? The only guys that will come here now are the ones with no other choice (Lee and Guerrero), ones with little offer (Atkins, Gonzales), ones that can be given a role or playing time that no other team will offer (Gregg) or ones we will have to significantly over pay for.

Part of it has to do with the fact that we've stunk for 13 straight years and part has to do with the fact that if you are looking to compete (and almost every guy out there wants to win) coming to the Orioles is not a good place to go.

Exactly. I can't believe some people actually deny that Bos and NYY playing in this division hurts our ability to attract FAs. Throwing out guys like Roberts and Markakis that never reached Free Agency isn't the same thing. Both got at least fair market offers and of course have other things to consider like uprooting family and such. When you are actually out there on the open market with your choice of multiple teams you can find the perfect fit or very close to it. I would bet that if Roberts and Nick had ever hit the market they would not have returned. I'll be completely honest, I'm a life long O's fan, grew up as a kid dreaming of playing in an O's uniform but hypothetically if all things were relatively equal and I was in a position to chose where I wanted to play MLB for the next 5-6 years it wouldn't be here and the Yankees and Red Sox are a big part of the reason why. I wouldn't go to Tampa or Toronto either. Put us in any other division and it would dramatically increase my interest in signing here. Bottom line is you want to win and the only way to do that is get into the dance. I've never understood the mentality of some to want to challenge the big boys in a divisional race or even once you reach the playoffs. Hell no, give me the path of least resistence where I can still reach the ultimate goal. If the big boys happen to get in my way we'll battle but I'm not seeking them out.

[Dipper9]

I don't think there is a difference. Obviously the two of them could have elected to go to another division or to the Yanks or Sox but decided to stay with Baltimore.

I say this knowing it is gonna come out wrong, but saying it none-the-less....perhaps they resigned here because they don't have winners' attitudes? They are comfortable in Baltimore, there is no urgency to win either through their own management nor in the media, and they got contracts that will make them and their families very wealthy for a very long time. Getting two guys like this to STAY in Baltimore is completely different than getting top free agents to CHOOSE Baltimore over the other 29 teams.

[Dipper9]

I say this knowing it is gonna come out wrong, but saying it none-the-less....perhaps they resigned here because they don't have winners' attitudes? They are comfortable in Baltimore, there is no urgency to win either through their own management nor in the media, and they got contracts that will make them and their families very wealthy for a very long time. Getting two guys like this to STAY in Baltimore is completely different than getting top free agents to CHOOSE Baltimore over the other 29 teams.

A test coming up that will tell us something is JJ Hardy. If he decides this aint too bad of a place, then maybe the stank is finally starting to leave this organization. If JJ says thanks but no thanks, we'll know that my post above is mostly correct.

[Dwight Schrute]

If MLB adds a wild card next year the minimum requirement that they would have to have is to finish in third place ahead of Toronto and Tampa. Do you think it is nearly as daunting a task? Then the question is if you can do that and you are better than the Central and West's second place team you are in the postseason.

I am not saying that this would be easy, it wouldn't be but I would think nobody would be happier than the players. It also would give fans increased hope as well.

I read these two words and it hit me that they describe the organization to a T. Take the recent draft, after Bundy they did they bare minimum they possibly could. They do the bare minimum in the international market. They do the bare minimum in scouting. There obvious goal is merely a .500 record (again I would say that is a bare minimum goal). They do the bare minimum in terms of marketing the team and getting people to come to the park (as Tony correctly points out). They sign middling free agents way past their prime because they think the average fan isn't intelligent enough to realize they are washed up and will be like, "hey cool we got Vlad". Every single facet of this club is minimum requirement and half ass. As Trea pointed out earlier in the thread, they can't even go all in on a strategy. They seemingly model themselves after Tampa but the way we follow the model is a dumpster fire compared to the way Tampa executes it. People are actually praising Macphail in other threads saying that in four years he took us from laughing stock to not quite as big of a laughing stock essentially. I agree he inherited a sh*t show. But how anyone can be satisfied with what he's done when there are 20 things he could be doing but isn't that are pointed out here on a message board by fans who don't even work in the game is beyond me. Wherever you work, if the company was in the crapper four years ago, would you be satisfied that your company is now mediocre knowing that there are so many things that could be done that don't require Yankee or Red Sox money to execute, but aren't being done? Its either laziness, or too much concern for the bottom line, which I feel is penny wise/pound foolish when you consider how much more money there is to be made if we just start winning with a little consistency. Sorry I went off in a million different directions but I feel better now.

{Clark} Where's the tylenol? {Griswold}

[Crazysilver03]

If MLB adds a wild card next year the minimum requirement that they would have to have is to finish in third place ahead of Toronto and Tampa. Do you think it is nearly as daunting a task? Then the question is if you can do that and you are better than the Central and West's second place team you are in the postseason.

I am not saying that this would be easy, it wouldn't be but I would think nobody would be happier than the players. It also would give fans increased hope as well.

Even if the Orioles make it in as the second wild card, as the third best team in the division, that means they are going up against Boston or NYY right away in the playoffs.

[Tony-OH]

Even if the Orioles make it in as the second wild card, as the third best team in the division, that means they are going up against Boston or NYY right away in the playoffs.

And anything can happen in a five or seven game set..

[Sports Guy]

Exactly. I can't believe some people actually deny that Bos and NYY playing in this division hurts our ability to attract FAs. Throwing out guys like Roberts and Markakis that never reached Free Agency isn't the same thing. Both got at least fair market offers and of course have other things to consider like uprooting family and such. When you are actually out there on the open market with your choice of multiple teams you can find the perfect fit or very close to it. I would bet that if Roberts and Nick had ever hit the market they would not have returned. I'll be completely honest, I'm a life long O's fan, grew up as a kid dreaming of playing in an O's uniform but hypothetically if all things were relatively equal and I was in a position to chose where I wanted to play MLB for the next 5-6 years it wouldn't be here and the Yankees and Red Sox are a big part of the reason why. I wouldn't go to Tampa or Toronto either. Put us in any other division and it would dramatically increase my interest in signing here. Bottom line is you want to win and the only way to do that is get into the dance. I've never understood the mentality of some to want to challenge the big boys in a divisional race or even once you reach the playoffs. Hell no, give me the path of least resistence where I can still reach the ultimate goal. If the big boys happen to get in my way we'll battle but I'm not seeking them out.

It hurts our ability to sign the garbage FAs who want another contract after coming here.

But its not even close to the #1 reason why they aren't attracting FAs.