How can Penn be this bad????

[Sports Guy]

Tell you one thing. He threw a gutsy 3-2 changeup to Jeter, who hit it like he knew what was coming. Even Kaat and Singleton were saying that it seemed likely Penn was tipping his pitches, and said that he and Mazzone would iron that out

They also said that minor leaguers would have been swinging at a number of Penn's pitches that were just off the plate, and that he was going to have to be more consistent on corners

That is interesting. I wonder if there is anything behind this?

[caljr]

I know comparing pitchers to batters is not the best, but I think you can look at Penn and Markakis as a similarity here. We all knew that Markakis had the talent to produce in the Majors and that one day would develop into a really good ballplayer. However, as we all know, when he first came up, it took him a couple of months of horrible baseball before he overcame and became the star we all thought he one day would. I think the same can be said here for Penn. He has the talent to one day be a star pitcher. Lets let him take his licks up here and work through his growing pains. Lets give Penn the benefit of the doubt just we did with Markakis.

[66-70-83-??]

That is interesting. I wonder if there is anything behind this?

How did he finish up in the minor leagues ?

Were his last few starts good ?

I find it hard to believe it (tipping pitches) just started. The scouts didn't pick it up instantaneously. It would have to be a pattern for them to figure it out.

And if they can- our coaches/scouts should have also picked it up.

[Sports Guy]

How did he finish up in the minor leagues ?

Were his last few starts good ?

I find it hard to believe it (tipping pitches) just started. The scouts didn't pick it up instantaneously. It would have to be a pattern for them to figure it out.

And if they can- our coaches/scouts should have also picked it up.

Who the hell knows.

Mussina found out this spring that he had been tipping his changeup for a while.

Pitchers don't just start tipping pitches when they are in the minors. Maybe Mazzone is doing some subtle tweaking with his windup and the ball is more visible, which is something that needs to be corrected.

[66-70-83-??]

I know comparing pitchers to batters is not the best, but I think you can look at Penn and Markakis as a similarity here. We all knew that Markakis had the talent to produce in the Majors and that one day would develop into a really good ballplayer. However, as we all know, when he first came up, it took him a couple of months of horrible baseball before he overcame and became the star we all thought he one day would. I think the same can be said here for Penn. He has the talent to one day be a star pitcher. Lets let him take his licks up here and work through his growing pains. Lets give Penn the benefit of the doubt just we did with Markakis.

Of course he has the talent to succeed.

But, every player who makes it to this level has the talent. You also need all sorts of intangibles that are not measured in the stats. Its the intangibles that often separate the prospects from the suspects at this level.

Scouts drooled over Ponsons "stuff", but what did he do with his talent ? No one ever raved about Jamie Moyers stuff or talent. But, look how far he went with what he had.

Let's hope Penn will turn his talent into results- at he major league level. He has nothing left to prove at AAA. He should get the ball every 5 days in September, come he!! or high water.

He should be given every chance to go out on a positive note this season.

[caljr]

Of course he has the talent to succeed.

But, every player who makes it to this level has the talent. You also need all sorts of intangibles that are not measured in the stats. Its the intangibles that often separate the prospects from the suspects at this level.

Scouts drooled over Ponsons "stuff", but what did he do with his talent ? No one ever raved about Jamie Moyers stuff or talent. But, look how far he went with what he had.

Let's hope Penn will turn his talent into results- at he major league level. He has nothing left to prove at AAA. He should get the ball every 5 days in September, come he!! or high water.

He should be given every chance to go out on a positive note this season.

Very good points. I know that not everbody is able to sucess at the minors into sucess at the majors and not everybody with talent is sucessful. I just say that we were patient with Markakis, we should also be patient with Penn. What do we have to lose anyway.... A better draft pick for next year?

[66-70-83-??]

Who the hell knows.

Mussina found out this spring that he had been tipping his changeup for a while.

Pitchers don't just start tipping pitches when they are in the minors. Maybe Mazzone is doing some subtle tweaking with his windup and the ball is more visible, which is something that needs to be corrected.

They sure do !

Pitchers can start tipping their pitches at any time.

Lots of pitchers tip their pitches. Some just don't know it yet.

These guys pitching motions are scrutinized bigtime on video by opposing teams to see even the slightest pattern of movement on each pitch to detect the "tipping."

[weams]

They sure do !

Pitchers can start tipping their pitches at any time.

Lots of pitchers tip their pitches. Some just don't know it yet.

These guys pitching motions are scrutinized bigtime on video by opposing teams to see even the slightest pattern of movement on each pitch to detect the "tipping."

'Tater is much better since fixing his tip off and I suspect that with the confidence batters are having facing Hayden...it could very well be. I am sure that Leo will be looking at this for Penn. Also if you have only two pitches working against American League hitters, it can be a long afternoon.

[DrungoHazewood]

I knew there would be a post like this Come on, this is an O's message board! One of our brightest prospects comes up for the second time and gets hammered in consecutive starts. People are gonna wanna talk about it. Nobody's saying the guy's doomed for failure.

Really? 'cause I thought there were posts all over this thread saying things like:

- Success in the minors really doesn't mean much

- Penn was probably overhyped

- There's a good chance he won't be all that good

- I would have traded him for a 27-year-old AAA first baseman

- Does history suggest a pitcher can recover from such a horrible disaster?

This isn't a big deal. Fans want something to latch onto, to keep them warm and toasty through the long winter. They'll get bitter when four innings don't go right. *shrug* Whatever.

[DrungoHazewood]

Of course he has the talent to succeed.

But, every player who makes it to this level has the talent. You also need all sorts of intangibles that are not measured in the stats. Its the intangibles that often separate the prospects from the suspects at this level.

Scouts drooled over Ponsons "stuff", but what did he do with his talent ? No one ever raved about Jamie Moyers stuff or talent. But, look how far he went with what he had.

You make the mistake of taking two very, very extreme cases and using them as examples to live by.

In between "drunken slob with no regard for his career" and "pinpoint perfect junkballer who worked hard for 10 years to hone his craft" are thousands of players. And almost all of them that make the majors have both intanglibles (i.e. are willing to work hard and learn) and skills.

Everyone who makes it to the majors is in the 95th or 99th percentile in intangibles and skill, so health often dictates success or failure.

If Penn keeps off the operating table he'll be at least an average major league starter.

Let's hope Penn will turn his talent into results- at he major league level. He has nothing left to prove at AAA. He should get the ball every 5 days in September, come he!! or high water.

He should be given every chance to go out on a positive note this season.

Huzzah! Completely agree.

[JourneyFan]

This isn't a big deal. Fans want something to latch onto, to keep them warm and toasty through the long winter. They'll get bitter when four innings don't go right. *shrug* Whatever.

But wouldn't it be nice if, for once, a good pitching prospect with great minor league numbers could make a smooth transition to the majors, without all of the extra "adjustment time"? That never seems to happen with the Orioles' candidates.

[Sports Guy]

BTW, all of our other starting pitchers struggled early on adjusting to Mazzone, why doesn't Penn get that same leeway?

[bgfield]

Really? 'cause I thought there were posts all over this thread saying things like:

- Success in the minors really doesn't mean much

- Penn was probably overhyped

- There's a good chance he won't be all that good

- I would have traded him for a 27-year-old AAA first baseman

- Does history suggest a pitcher can recover from such a horrible disaster?

This isn't a big deal. Fans want something to latch onto, to keep them warm and toasty through the long winter. They'll get bitter when four innings don't go right. *shrug* Whatever.

Okay then, I'm not saying he's doomed for disaster

[JourneyFan]

BTW, all of our other starting pitchers struggled early on adjusting to Mazzone, why doesn't Penn get that same leeway?

Since when did those other pitchers get leeway? How many times did people start anti-Bedard threads? How many people got frustrated with Loewen? Giving leeway would involve NOT getting upset too early. BTW, aside from Bedard, who had already been a starter for more than a season, and Loewen, who hasn't even been one for half a season, to what "other" starting pitchers are you referring?

[Sports Guy]

Since when did those other pitchers get leeway? How many times did people start anti-Bedard threads? How many people got frustrated with Loewen? Giving leeway would involve NOT getting upset too early.

And those people who jumped the gun can hopefully see how wrong they were for doing so.