How can Penn be this bad????

[rolliefingers]

BTW, all of our other starting pitchers struggled early on adjusting to Mazzone, why doesn't Penn get that same leeway?

Not to mention the appendicitis basically ruined Penn's season. He's had a tough and disappointing season in many ways, yet he still dominated AAA. This is such a non-issue, it's not even funny.

[MP]

Not to mention the appendicitis basically ruined Penn's season. He's had a tough and disappointing season in many ways, yet he still dominated AAA. This is such a non-issue, it's not even funny.

Balboa, what exactly has you bothered here? Are we just supposed to look the other way when our young players stink up the joint?

From what I see the over-reaction here hasn't been to Penn, it's been to those who have acknowledged that Penn is pitching poorly.

It could be summarized like this:

Poster 1: "Penn looks horrible out there, what's up?"

Poster 2: "Here we go, everyone's panicking."

Poster 3: "I knew there were be a thread like this."

Poster 4: "Typical childish overreaction."

[Frobby]

And those people who jumped the gun can hopefully see how wrong they were for doing so.

Orioles ERA pre-all star break: 5.29

Orioles ERA post-all star break: 5.30

You can point to individual pitchers who have done better as the season has progressed, and claim that they "adjusted" to Mazzone. But overall, the staff is just as bad in the 2d half as it was in the first. The starters have improved but the bullpen has gotten worse.

[66-70-83-??]

Balboa, what exactly has you bothered here? Are we just supposed to look the other way when our young players stink up the joint?

From what I see the over-reaction here hasn't been to Penn, it's been to those who have acknowledged that Penn is pitching poorly.

It could be summarized like this:

Poster 1: "Penn looks horrible out there, what's up?"

Poster 2: "Here we go, everyone's panicking."

Poster 3: "I knew there were be a thread like this."

Poster 4: "Typical childish overreaction."

Of course there is reason for concern.

He didn't just have two so-so outings, he had two horrible outings.

He should still get the ball every 5 days for the rest of the year.

To those who are supporting Penn- if the exact opposite happened, and Penn pitched two straight complete game shutouts- would we be justified in getting excited about it ? Of course.

[Sports Guy]

Of course there is reason for concern.

He didn't just have two so-so outings, he had two horrible outings.

He should still get the ball every 5 days for the rest of the year.

To those who are supporting Penn- if the exact opposite happened, and Penn pitched two straight complete game shutouts- would we be justified in getting excited about it ? Of course.

Yea, i heard the same thing in regards to Markakis and Loewen.

This means NOTHING unless Penn has very shaken confidence.

[DrungoHazewood]

But wouldn't it be nice if, for once, a good pitching prospect with great minor league numbers could make a smooth transition to the majors, without all of the extra "adjustment time"? That never seems to happen with the Orioles' candidates.

Sure, that'd be nice. But the 1990 Braves were probably saying the same thing.

Steve Avery was their Hayden Penn. He had a 5.67 ERA in a league where the ERA was 3.79. In today's environment that would be about a 6.70.

Glavine had a 4.28. In today's terms that's about a 5.10.

Pete Smith had a 4.79. Equivalent to a 5.70 today.

Mike Stanton and Tommy Greene combined to allow 27 runs in 19.1 innings.

Their ace, their Erik Bedard, was John Smoltz. He put up a 3.86 ERA, which (after adjusting for park effects) was 4% above average, which is quite a bit worse than Bedard. Our guy has a 3.91 in a league that has about a 4.50.

That's what Leo Mazzone was facing after his first year in Atlanta. Does it mean the O's will have a 10-year run of pitching greatness? Of course not. But pitchers need time to adjust, and the Orioles should allow them to have it before passing judgment. Baseball requires patience.

[rolliefingers]

Balboa, what exactly has you bothered here? Are we just supposed to look the other way when our young players stink up the joint?

From what I see the over-reaction here hasn't been to Penn, it's been to those who have acknowledged that Penn is pitching poorly.

It could be summarized like this:

Poster 1: "Penn looks horrible out there, what's up?"

Poster 2: "Here we go, everyone's panicking."

Poster 3: "I knew there were be a thread like this."

Poster 4: "Typical childish overreaction."

It's just entirely predictable that when one of our young pitchers gets lit up, someone's going to:

1.) Call him overrated

2.) Compare him to Ponson

3.) Advocate a trade for the power hitter du jour

4.) Say we overhype our prospects

Even though

1.) Every team in baseball asks for Penn in trade talks

2.) There is zero evidence that Penn is anything other than a hard worker and intelligent

3.) We don't have enough ML-ready pitching to deal guys like Penn...yet

4.) Numerous publications have Penn in their top-100s, and again, every single team wants him.

Again, I haven't read everything in this thread, but I will wager money that all four of those assertions were made in either this thread or the one that followed his Oakland start (not by you, necessarily, but someone). It's just knee-jerk stuff, and it's irritating.

At this point, I can accept criticism of DCab, although I still think people underrate his ability to improve. But Penn? The kid has a world of talent, it's been two starts, give him a chance.

[Mark Carver]

Orioles ERA pre-all star break: 5.29

Orioles ERA post-all star break: 5.30

You can point to individual pitchers who have done better as the season has progressed, and claim that they "adjusted" to Mazzone. But overall, the staff is just as bad in the 2d half as it was in the first. The starters have improved but the bullpen has gotten worse.

Bullpens are easily more fixable than starters... and since the starters have gotten better under Mazzone, I'm happy.

[rolliefingers]

Of course there is reason for concern.

He didn't just have two so-so outings, he had two horrible outings.

He should still get the ball every 5 days for the rest of the year.

To those who are supporting Penn- if the exact opposite happened, and Penn pitched two straight complete game shutouts- would we be justified in getting excited about it ? Of course.

Of course^2. But two CG shutouts would be closer to his actual ceiling than getting torched twice. Let me put it this way: I am more surprised at him getting shelled than I would be if he had thrown two CG shutouts, considering the way he pitched at AAA. (Both would be pretty surprising, but I think you see what I'm saying.)

[Mark Carver]

Yea, i heard the same thing in regards to Markakis and Loewen.

This means NOTHING unless Penn has very shaken confidence.

When Bedard had a 5.76 ERA after the first 2 months of seasons, there were some fans ready to jump ship on him...

[DrungoHazewood]

Orioles ERA pre-all star break: 5.29

Orioles ERA post-all star break: 5.30

You can point to individual pitchers who have done better as the season has progressed, and claim that they "adjusted" to Mazzone. But overall, the staff is just as bad in the 2d half as it was in the first. The starters have improved but the bullpen has gotten worse.

Remove Ortiz, Chen, and James Johnson, who shouldn't be here, and God willing won't be here next year and you've removed 54 earned runs in 59 innings.

The rest of the team, even including Penn's disasters and the pen, have improved by about a half a run a game since the break.

[bgfield]

That's what Leo Mazzone was facing after his first year in Atlanta. Does it mean the O's will have a 10-year run of pitching greatness? Of course not. But pitchers need time to adjust, and the Orioles should allow them to have it before passing judgment.

I wish I knew what pitchers had to "adjust" to when becoming a Mazzone pupil. What is so extraordinarily different about his program that causes pitchers to take months or even a whole season under him until they flourish? Haven't their been pitchers that came to Atlanta and immediately pitched better than their career average without ever having to "adjust"? I know he has an extra side session in between starts but I've heard comments that they can be extremely short if Mazzone likes what he sees.

I'm not going to write him off, obviously he has a proven track record, but I am genuinely curious as to whether or not pitchers truly need to "adjust" to the Mazzone program, or if it's just a convenient excuse.

[MP]

But Penn? The kid has a world of talent, it's been two starts, give him a chance.

This is the over-reaction.

Why can't poor performance ever be acknowledged? If somebody suggested that Penn will never make it just because he's getting rocked now, then I would argue with them because that's going waaaaay too far. Penn may turn out to be a fantastic pitcher. But here's a fact - he's getting rocked out there right now.

But it's as if when I type "he's getting rocked out there", what people will read is "Since he's getting rocked out there, he'll never make it in the big leagues. We are learning everything we will ever need to know about Hayden Penn based on how he's getting rocked out there."

[rolliefingers]

This is the over-reaction.

Why can't poor performance ever be acknowledged? If somebody suggested that Penn will never make it just because he's getting rocked now, then I would argue with them because that's going waaaaay too far. Penn may turn out to be a fantastic pitcher. But here's a fact - he's getting rocked out there right now.

But it's as if when I type "he's getting rocked out there", what people will read is "Since he's getting rocked out there, he'll never make it in the big leagues. We are learning everything we will ever need to know about Hayden Penn based on how he's getting rocked out there."

I wasn't calling you out specifically - why are you making this into a personal thing?

Look over this thread. Two bad starts and people are actually making the assertions that I listed above. Far more than just stating "He is getting rocked".

Yes, he got rocked. But I'll need to see about 5 more of those in a row before I start worrying.

[Frobby]

I will say this about Penn's 2 bad performances: they have not made the front office's job any easier. If he continues to be shaky throughout September, it is pretty much impossible to go into the offseason on the assumption that he will be in the rotation next year. And that has a big impact on what the offseason priorities are.