How can Penn be this bad????

[Ruzious]

Yes, he got rocked. But I'll need to see about 5 more of those in a row before I start worrying.

If he has 1 more in a row, I'd be worried that he has some kind of injury. You can't continue to pitch that poorly in the majors for an extended period without either having some kind of physical problem or just not being good enough.

[66-70-83-??]

I wasn't calling you out specifically - why are you making this into a personal thing?

Look over this thread. Two bad starts and people are actually making the assertions that I listed above. Far more than just stating "He is getting rocked".

Yes, he got rocked. But I'll need to see about 5 more of those in a row before I start worrying.

MP is right. You are the one overreacting.

I used Ponson to make a point- I didn't compare Penn to Ponson. Take the time to read what is written and understand the context.

We talk about the Orioles here- are you really expecting a top prospect to come up and make an appearance and not get talked about, let alone whether they perform real good or real bad ?

No one has called for his head. Even those who are "concerned", like me, have said he should continue to get the ball every five days.

Now, Penn has completed 10 major league starts:

GS-10

IP-42

H-63

BB-23

K-19

ER-42

WHIP-2.05

ERA- 9.00

HR- 10

K/BB- 0.8

How many ML starts does he need to make before its ok to be concerned ?

[MP]

I wasn't calling you out specifically - why are you making this into a personal thing?

Look over this thread. Two bad starts and people are actually making the assertions that I listed above. Far more than just stating "He is getting rocked".

Yes, he got rocked. But I'll need to see about 5 more of those in a row before I start worrying.

Sorry to make it personal, I don't mean to make this you vs me. :002_ssmile:

You were just there when I came in, and you seemed unreceptive to the idea that Penn's poor pitching was worthy of note. As if discussion = condemnation. I think we're on the same page.

I didn't see people making extreme assertions like you mentioned, but I probably missed something. I would argue with those people right beside you, he's just a 21 year old kid out there for the love of cripes.

[rolliefingers]

MP is right. You are the one overreacting.

I used Ponson to make a point- I didn't compare Penn to Ponson. Take the time to read what is written and understand the context.

We talk about the Orioles here- are you really expecting a top prospect to come up and make an appearance and not get talked about, let alone whether they perform real good or real bad ?

No one has called for his head. Even those who are "concerned", like me, have said he should continue to get the ball every five days.

Now, Penn has completed 10 major league starts:

GS-10

IP-42

H-63

BB-23

K-19

ER-42

WHIP-2.05

ERA- 9.00

HR- 10

K/BB- 0.8

How many ML starts does he need to make before its ok to be concerned ?

Considering that he's 22 years old, and that all but two of those starts came last year (before he had dominated AAA), I'll refer back to what I said earlier. I'll need to see about five more terrible starts this year before I start worrying about Penn.

[MP]

Penn will get, at most, 4 more starts this year. He may only get 3. We're gonna be setup for an offseason of bickering!

If they go to a 5 man rotation effectively immediately, he'll get:

@DET

@TB

@NYY

@BOS

For a guy with those 2 horrible starts under his belt, he's not catching any breaks with the schedule.

[rolliefingers]

Penn will get, at most, 4 more starts this year. He may only get 3. We're gonna be setup for an offseason of bickering!

If they go to a 5 man rotation effectively immediately, he'll get:

@DET

@TB

@NYY

@BOS

For a guy with those 2 horrible starts under his belt, he's not catching any breaks with the schedule.

OK, I'll need to see three or four more starts before I panic!

[davearm]

FWIW, our friend Rich Hill tore up AAA pitching but kept getting lit up in MLB until he got settled in. Now he's pitching great and looking like a lock for next year's Cub rotation.

Way back on page 2 someone -- forgot who -- made a very good point about the growing divide between AAA hitting and MLB hitting. I think this is very true. I can tell you that this year the Cubs have given starts to something like 8 rookies, and the ones that came straight from AA (Marshall, Marmol, Mateo) have done better than the ones that came from AAA (Guzman, Ryu, Hill until recently).

One last observation -- a couple weeks ago everyone and their brother were screaming at the O's FO for having washouts like Ortiz in the rotation while Penn was stuck in the minors. Is it possible they knew what they were doing, and anticipated that Penn would struggle like he has?

[Frobby]

One last observation -- a couple weeks ago everyone and their brother were screaming at the O's FO for having washouts like Ortiz in the rotation while Penn was stuck in the minors. Is it possible they knew what they were doing, and anticipated that Penn would struggle like he has?

Yes, I think that is possible. Here is an excerpt from today's Wshington Post:

Perhaps Penn's season was derailed when he underwent an appendectomy in late May, which caused him to miss what would have been his season debut with the Orioles. After that operation, Penn's stock in the organization was never quite the same. Before the operation, Penn had marveled team executives with his performance for Class AAA Ottawa. After the operation, Penn's Orioles debut kept getting pushed back because team scouts were not overly impressed with his minor league outings.

[mark_beckens]

No I didn't.

My fear is that Penn will be one of those pitchers who cannot pitch well if everything isn't working for him. Guys like Loewen, Bedard, and Cabrera, have shown that they can get by with minimal damage even if they don't have their best stuff. I'm worried that Penn is like Chen; if he's off, if he misses his spots by just a couple of inches, it gets smashed. If that is the case, then unless Penn develops impeccable command, I don't think he'll ever be a great pitcher.[/

Obviously he does. But that better stuff hasn't prevented him from getting hammered in two starts. Cabrera's had games where his curve wasn't working but he still managed to keep his team in the game. Bedard's had games where all he had was his fastball and curve that he couldn't throw for a strike and still post a quality start.

It's obviously too early to make any judgement, but I think there's reason for some concern. Everything except for maybe a couple of ground balls was hit hard off of Penn today. Is that what we can expect when he has the occasional, inevitable game where his curve isn't working?

As far as I'm concerned those are your judgements biased on 2 starts by a 21 year old kid!

[mark_beckens]

I knew there would be a post like this Come on, this is an O's message board! One of our brightest prospects comes up for the second time and gets hammered in consecutive starts. People are gonna wanna talk about it. Nobody's saying the guy's doomed for failure.

This board seems to have alot of people who rush to judge players based on short periods of time. One bad game, a bad week, or couple bad months! It's crazy to worry about it and feel the need to write about it every time they or the team has a bad game, week, month!

[mark_beckens]

They sure do !

Pitchers can start tipping their pitches at any time.

Lots of pitchers tip their pitches. Some just don't know it yet.

These guys pitching motions are scrutinized bigtime on video by opposing teams to see even the slightest pattern of movement on each pitch to detect the "tipping."

Alot of times they don't find out until another player comes to their team as a FA or by trade that they had his pitches! I played college ball and semi-pro, when I wasn't at bat I was watching the pitcher trying to pick anything I could up. Different arm angle on a curve, how he would put his hand into his glove for a split finger, they are very subtle and not everyone notices them, it's an art to pick them up!

[Frobby]

This board seems to have alot of people who rush to judge players based on short periods of time. One bad game, a bad week, or couple bad months! It's crazy to worry about it and feel the need to write about it every time they or the team has a bad game, week, month!

There is a thread about last night's starting pitcher just about 162 days a year around here. And I see nothing worng with it.

There is nothing that will happen this month that will change my opinion that Penn should be given a chance to win a job in the starting rotation next spring. But in assessing what to do with the overall staff this winter, you have to take into account how well Penn has performed this month. He has 4 starts left, I hope at least 2 of them are solid. If not, it builds a very strong case that we need to bring in some outside pitching.

[66-70-83-??]

Alot of times they don't find out until another player comes to their team as a FA or by trade that they had his pitches!

I know.

It is a sore spot among pitchers. They will never tell what the "tip-off" was when they are told. They quietly fix it, if they can.

When so-so hitters sometimes "own" really good pitchers- it is usually because they have "cracked the code" and figured out what they are going to throw. Most hitters will share with teammates but the tip-off could be so sublte that not everyone can read it.

It is an interesting subject. I read an extensive article a few months back about it.

Eckersley talked about how he was inadvertantly tipping his pitches at different points of his career, how he found out, etc... And he would never tell what the tip was until after he retired.

[mweb]

There should be a middle ground here between the people who think this is a huge deal and the people who act like this doesn't even matter. It does matter, it should be considered, and it should not be dismissed. However, it's not nearly a large enough sample size to come close to reaching any conclusions.

[Sports Guy]

There should be a middle ground here between the people who think this is a huge deal and the people who act like this doesn't even matter. It does matter, it should be considered, and it should not be dismissed. However, it's not nearly a large enough sample size to come close to reaching any conclusions.

Didn't you say the same thing in regards to Loewen and/or Markakis?

I remember discussing this with you before about one(or both) of them.