Unhappy Scouts??

[weams]

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Hang on for the Ride.

[SteveA]

From Jen Royle Tweet.

OK, I'm just home from work and I see this is a multipage thread.

Yet I have only read the first post. So my comments may be wildly off base but:

1) Jen Royle is a poor reporter so take that with a grain of salt.

2) Given the Orioles' results at producing talent, or acquiring talent, I don't have a particularly high opinion of our scouting staff in general, so anything that makes them unhappy is potentially a good thing as far as I am concerned. No, I don't know enough about the organization or about scouting to say that John Doe is a crappy scout. But looking at the overall product this system has put on the field for 14 years, and the fact that scouts play a significant role in producing that product, both in terms of who we draft and who we trade for or sign, I am not predisposed to think our scouts are very good. Unfair? Sure. But without knowing more it's a valid conclusion to make. Take your pick of what you might think is the worst TV show of all time. Do you think that all the writers for that show sucked? Probably not. One of them might have been a great writer constrained by the producers or the idiotic plot to produce dreck that was well below their ability. But if you took the entire writing staff of that show and put it up against the group of people who wrote M*A*S*H, or Hill Street Blues, I can tell you which group I would take. Without being able to name a single name.

So Duq has come in and shaken things up a little bit? Well good. Things damn well needed to be shaken up. Anyone who has been part of putting this pathetic product on the field for hte last 14 years should count themselves lucky to have a job in baseball at this point. [insert tiny little violins].

OK, now I'll read the rest of the thread and see what's happening....

[Tony-OH]

Apparently, the DD-fandom outweighs the DAlbany fandom on OH.

Actually, that probably fell through the cracks. I do know that Albany has a good reputation. That's a slap, I'm sure.

I've known Dean for years and out of all of the people I know in baseball, he's the closest guy I can a friend. I talked with Dean tonight and he absolutely does not think it's a slap in the face. The Orioles want to get back to the days where an area scout has been in one place for 20+ years. No one has more contacts in the Baltimore, Md, DC, VA area than Dean. They have him doing some additional stuff as well, but he's 100% on board on what's going on. Sure, he has friends caught up in the shake up, but he's behind what Duquette is doing 100%.

The Orioles have lost for 14 straight years. Things should be shook up!

[Fan4Life]

I've known Dean for years and out of all of the people I know in baseball, he's the closest guy I can a friend. I talked with Dean tonight and he absolutely does not think it's a slap in the face. The Orioles want to get back to the days where an area scout has been in one place for 20+ years. No one has more contacts in the Baltimore, Md, DC, VA area than Dean. They have him doing some additional stuff as well, but he's 100% on board on what's going on. Sure, he has friends caught up in the shake up, but he's behind what Duquette is doing 100%.

The Orioles have lost for 14 straight years. Things should be shook up!

Thanks, great news. Now I just need to see Chen signed and either Cespedes and/or Solar and I'll be about as happy as I could be to this point in the offseason.

[SteveA]

I agree at the MLB level. I find it hard to believe Baltimore will make good pro talent acquisitions without adequately scouting other organizations. Texas became one of the best acquirers of talent (amateur and pro) in the game by improving information sharing and improving scouting. Ditto Atlanta and Tampa.

Perhaps true. But you certainly can't believe that with these guys doing the job, that we have been in any way doing a GOOD job of scouting other organizations. We didn't realize that Garrett Atkins had lost so much bat speed that he couldn't hit anymore, and we invested millions of dollars in him. We didn't realize that Mike Gonzalez wasn't completely healthy when we signed him. With the exception of Adam Jones, who had already reached the big leagues, most of the minor league talent we got in the Tejada and Bedard deals has failed or been hurt or both.

Meanwhile, I don't think ANYONE who watches this team daily thinks they do a very good job of advance scouting other MLB teams. We are constantly mystified by junkball pitchers we haven't seen before. Reading the paper and blogs of people covering the team daily for many years, I don't recall one single anecdote about how any player in any game was helped because an advance scout picked something up that was useful.

Judging based on tangible results, because that's all I have to go on, I honestly can't see how we could have gotten much less out of professional (MLB & MiLB) scouting the past decade or so than we actually have.

[TakebackOPACY]

Wan't Albany just promoted to Regional Cross-checker? Now he's an area scout and liason with MD-area players?

January 2009

[Stotle]

January 2009

Oh, thought it was more recent. Strange.

[Stotle]

Perhaps true. But you certainly can't believe that with these guys doing the job, that we have been in any way doing a GOOD job of scouting other organizations. We didn't realize that Garrett Atkins had lost so much bat speed that he couldn't hit anymore, and we invested millions of dollars in him. We didn't realize that Mike Gonzalez wasn't completely healthy when we signed him. With the exception of Adam Jones, who had already reached the big leagues, most of the minor league talent we got in the Tejada and Bedard deals has failed or been hurt or both.

Meanwhile, I don't think ANYONE who watches this team daily thinks they do a very good job of advance scouting other MLB teams. We are constantly mystified by junkball pitchers we haven't seen before. Reading the paper and blogs of people covering the team daily for many years, I don't recall one single anecdote about how any player in any game was helped because an advance scout picked something up that was useful.

Judging based on tangible results, because that's all I have to go on, I honestly can't see how we could have gotten much less out of professional (MLB & MiLB) scouting the past decade or so than we actually have.

My comment had less to do with these scouts than it did the idea that Baltimore is cutting back on Minor League coverage by scouts.

[SteveA]

A few thoughts now that I have read the entire thread:

1) Given that there is apparently a "normal" scout hiring period in the fall, the timing is unfortunate. But there's nothing that can be done about that. Duquette wasn't hired in time to get into the organization, study it, see what needed changing, and start doing it by that time. You could say why wait until next year -- but every change that could improve the organization needs to be done as soon as possible. Changes to the way we scout might not pay off for a year or two... so you want to defer them a year? So that by the time things start improving we are on our 17th, 18th, 19th straight losing season? The hell with that. We tried slow and cautious with McPhail. Yes, as LJ points out, this could affect how other potential hires view our organization as a potential place to work. Perhaps there's a downside there. But our organization is clearly dysfunctional. And it appears that DD feels there's something that can be done to make it more functional... only time will tell if he's right or not, but it's his show right now and if he wants to try something DIFFERENT (minimizing pro scouting), I say have at it and start it sooner rather than later. I have to think there would be more attraction by an employee to be part of a well-oiled winning organization than to be part of a dysfunctional losing mess. We've got a long way to go to make tha transition, andif DD thinks this needs to be done he needs to start as soon as possible. And he has.

2) Our pro scouts did not tell us that Garret Atkins' bat speed had slowed down to the point that he was no longer a major league hitter. It did not tell us that Mike Gonzalez was not 100% healthy when we acquired him. It did not tell us the seriousness of Troy Patten's injury. In terms of acquiring pro players for every success we have had such as Jones or Guthrie, we have had many, many more failures. (And was the Guthrie acquisition a result of scouting, or did a minor league manager in our organization named Dave Trembley make the recommendation?) As Tony points out, our advance scouts have not helped us hit new pitchers we have never seen before as time after time guys with ERAs over 5 make us look totally foolish. Furthermore, in following this team daily, reading hte paper and many blogs and tweets by people that cover the team, I don't even recall one anecdotal story about advance scouting making a positive difference for the team. I don't see how anyone can look at any visible, tangible end-product put out by our pro scouts (the body of pro players we have acquired, advance scouting helping us win additional games) and say, wow, those guys must be doing a great job. Can I say for sure they did a poor job? Of course not, I simply don't have enough access to look under the hood and see how things are really running, nor would I have the expertise to judge things if I could. But when an organization has 14 straight losing seasons, and is considered by most in the industry to be a bastion of dysfunction, I would say the burden of proof would be to show me what good any particular facet of our organization has accomplished. Judged en masse, I see nothing that indicates to me that our Pro Scouting department has done a good job.

3) I think the assumption that these guys were being demoted as a ploy just to get rid of them is a stretch. It appears that Duquette really believes that too many resources are being spent on Pro Scouting and that it is unnecessary. The fact that he eliminated the title of Director of Pro Scouting is certainly indicative of this. That being the case, the best thing you can do for these guys is to reassign them where there talents can most be of use in the organization. And it does seem to appear, based on reading this thread about Frohwirth and Albany, that attempts were made to put guys in regions they were as comfortable as possible in.

4) It does look like some legitimate questions have been brought up about whether it is wise to eliminate minor league pro scouting. Has there been a statement that this is definitely happening, or is that just being inferred from these moves?

5) A 300+ post thread about scouting on a Friday a week before Christmas -- I wonder if the Orioles have any idea whatsoever what a loyal (if dwindling) cadre of fans they have that would generate this deep a discussion about this topic?

6) Finally I'd like to thank Stotle, AllStar, and nochance for bringing their perspective to the thread and educating us about the scouting business from an insiders' perspective.

[OrioleMagic]

6) Finally I'd like to thank Stotle, AllStar, and nochance for bringing their perspective to the thread and educating us about the scouting business from an insiders' perspective.

I second this and wish to add Tony to the list. This was a pretty good read.

Now if we can just sign a Taiwanese guy and a Cuban (or 2).... I will consider my Christmas a good one.

[csgordos]

I vaguely remember stole mentioning a few times that he never ran into Orioles scouts at the events he went to and often ran into multiple other scouts from the same team at some. Too me that was always a huge red flag. So I am happy we have more people who will be going out to look at the talent at the highschool and college levels. Maybe I am way off on this though.

[allstar1579]

Wow, another 7 pages after I left? You guys really picked up my slack in here, sorry, had to go finish some Christmas shopping.

One lingering thought I had while I was out and about. I wonder if any of these guys were extended during the "interim" period while we were looking for a GM. Remember a couple months ago when they signed the Stockstills and said they had most of the scouts and whatnot signed then? I wonder who signed them and what that person thinks of this situation.

@Tony, thanks for that input from Dean. I was going to PM you tonight since I knew you knew him well and see if you had heard from him about things. I actually really do get the idea behind having specialized scouts that REALLY know an area well instead of just passing guy after guy. I think the gist is to make these "area" scouts more important, and instead of them being viewed as just area guys that report up a level, having them really be a trusted opinion in those areas. I think some org. kinda treat area scouts like gophers, and it'd be nice to see them have more input and an important role (and better pay).

I'm hoping that they will add a couple eyes to pro scouting before the season starts, and I know it's past the normal scouting hire season. But kind of counter to Nick's point that the amateur guys will really be behind a bit right now, it's the offseason and we really don't need any pro scouts for a couple months yet anyway, what are they going to scout? A 22-year old's golf game? If they add some former players or just new guys later to scout the pro stuff it wouldn't really need to happen until ST or so would it?

[Sports Guy]

Whether this works or not remains to be seen.

Bottom line for me is that DD is making all of this, ie building a REAL organization, a priority and he is going in there and trying to change the culture.

There is nothing but good there. We can debate whether this particular move is a good one(personally, I think it is...the lack of results speak for themselves and have for years...been pointing this ever since i can remember) but what shouldn't be up for debate is that this organization needs a serious makeover and DD is trying to do what he can to accomplish that.

NO ONE here should be upset about that.

[Stotle]

I'm hoping that they will add a couple eyes to pro scouting before the season starts, and I know it's past the normal scouting hire season. But kind of counter to Nick's point that the amateur guys will really be behind a bit right now, it's the offseason and we really don't need any pro scouts for a couple months yet anyway, what are they going to scout? A 22-year old's golf game? If they add some former players or just new guys later to scout the pro stuff it wouldn't really need to happen until ST or so would it?

Both will be really starting up around the same time -- amateur and pro.

[Stotle]

Whether this works or not remains to be seen.

Bottom line for me is that DD is making all of this, ie building a REAL organization, a priority and he is going in there and trying to change the culture.

There is nothing but good there. We can debate whether this particular move is a good one(personally, I think it is...the lack of results speak for themselves and have for years...been pointing this ever since i can remember) but what shouldn't be up for debate is that this organization needs a serious makeover and DD is trying to do what he can to accomplish that.

NO ONE here should be upset about that.

Just to confirm, you don't care that the O's could have three total pro scouts covering the minors, and two scouts covering the Majors?