Vs. American

[Jagwar]

There is no one problem that explains Maryland's demise over the past few years. Its a combined issue of some poor planning, poor recruiting, poor development, and some straight up bad luck.

How much of the thin recruiting from 04-06 was a result of the 02-04 recruiting? Take a look at these two classes.

2002-03 Gilchrist, Caner-Medley, McCray, Garrison, J Smith

2003-04 Strawberry, Bowers, Fofana, Ibekwe, Strawberry

I think the two 5-man classes contributed to the next two poor years, because too many eggs were put into those baskets. The next two years were the Gist/Ledbetter and Neal/Brown classes, which each included quick fix JuCo transfers who weren't even really that good. Throw in the Shane Clark and Jeff Jones defections too.

Like you said Mackus, poor recruiting/development and bad luck

[BaltimoreTerp]

How much of the thin recruiting from 04-06 was a result of the 02-04 recruiting? Take a look at these two classes.

2002-03 Gilchrist, Caner-Medley, McCray, Garrison, J Smith

2003-04 Strawberry, Bowers, Fofana, Ibekwe, Strawberry

I think the two 5-man classes contributed to the next two poor years, because too many eggs were put into those baskets. The next two years were the Gist/Ledbetter and Neal/Brown classes, which each included quick fix JuCo transfers who weren't even really that good. Throw in the Shane Clark and Jeff Jones defections too.

Like you said Mackus, poor recruiting/development and bad luck

I'd argue the poor development and luck before calling the best recruiting classes in school history poor.

[Mackus]

How much of the thin recruiting from 04-06 was a result of the 02-04 recruiting? Take a look at these two classes.

2002-03 Gilchrist, Caner-Medley, McCray, Garrison, J Smith

2003-04 Strawberry, Bowers, Fofana, Ibekwe, Strawberry

I think the two 5-man classes contributed to the next two poor years, because too many eggs were put into those baskets. The next two years were the Gist/Ledbetter and Neal/Brown classes, which each included quick fix JuCo transfers who weren't even really that good. Throw in the Shane Clark and Jeff Jones defections too.

Like you said Mackus, poor recruiting/development and bad luck

I would call that more bad planning than poor recruiting. Those classes were monsters, but theres always the chance of them laying an egg, and there was no backup plan in that scenario. What scares me a bit is that it looks like Gary is going back to the big class model with the next couple recruiting classes. Its a very big risk/reward type move. If they hit, we'll be great, if not, we'll be looking at 2004-2007 all over again.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I would call that more bad planning than poor recruiting. Those classes were monsters, but theres always the chance of them laying an egg, and there was no backup plan in that scenario. What scares me a bit is that it looks like Gary is going back to the big class model with the next couple recruiting classes. Its a very big risk/reward type move. If they hit, we'll be great, if not, we'll be looking at 2004-2007 all over again.

I blame Chris Wilcox. If he hadn't left early, we wouldn't have had the extra 'ship that year

[accinfo]

What a bunch of bullcrap. Gary is a HOF coach. You can't take away what he did with Dixon here, and even if you could, he was still a great coach before that. He's taken 3 schools to the NCAAs, built a major program out of nothing even before Dixon and Baxter walked into Cole, and went to a dozen straight NCAA tournaments. The man is a legend.

So what he took three schools to the NCAA tournament. It isn't like Boston College, Ohio State, and Maryland had never made it to the NCAA tournament before Gary Williams. He took BC and Ohio State to the tournament then Maryland made three. American never went to the tournament even though they finished 11-0 in conference one year, but Gary as usual flamed out of the championship during their conference championship. He is a legend in your mind and I guess his own. HOF coaches should be coaches that take multiple teams to the Final-4 or win Multiple conference Championships. Gary has won 1 conference Championship in his whole career. That is a from a great weekend with John Gilchrist. Sorry regular season doesn't count.

At BC he inherited a team from Tom Davis that went to the Final 8 the year before. A year older and they went to the sweet 16 with the legend Gary at the helm. The next two years he went 8-8, and 7-9 in the Big East. Then he took over a team at Ohio State who had gone to 6 straight NCAA tournaments. Then he went 9-9 made the tournament his FIRST year then went 9-9 went to the NIT and then 6-12. There is a trend there. To say he was a great coach before Dixon is nonsense. He was a decent coach. Those are the facts. Dixon was a lucky find. In 30 years of coaching that is his exception not the rule.

[BaltimoreTerp]

So what he took three schools to the NCAA tournament. It isn't like Boston College, Ohio State, and Maryland had never made it to the NCAA tournament before Gary Williams. He is a legend in your mind and I guess his own. At BC he inherited a team from Tom Davis that went to the Final 8 the year before. A year older and they went to the sweet 16 with the legend Gary at the helm. The next two years he went 8-8, and 7-9 in the Big East. Then he took over a team at ohio State who had gone to 6 straight NCAA tournaments. Then he went 9-9 made the tournament his FIRST year then went 9-9 went to the NIT and then 6-12. There is a trend there. To say he was a great coach before Dixon is nonsense. He was a decent coach. Those are the facts. Dixon was a lucky find. In 30 years of coaching that is his exception not the rule.

Where do you have those records?

[accinfo]

Where do you have those records?

Look near the bottom of this link.

http://umterps.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/williams_gary00.html

[Todd-O]

With Juan Dixon he went 49-15 or a very impressive .766 winning percentage.

Does no one remember the Terps getting booed off the court following an FSU loss the year they went to their first final four?

Juan was a great player... but that was a great TEAM - primarily during the following season. Do you forget what a defense force Mouton was? The head PG play by Blake? Solid low post play of Baxter. The Bench play of Nicholas?

If you're a Gary hater... then hate on. But I seem to remember lots of great - FUN TO WATCH - teams that didn't have Dixon on them.

There have been some bumps in the road during recent years... but also some very bizzare circumstances. Everyone needs to calm down and let this play itself out.

[Todd-O]

Gary has won 1 conference Championship in his whole career.

OMG you're a hater... WHY???

I love that you're making reference to the ACC Championship... that home game for Duke and UNC.

The man won a National Championship.

He's been a winner at every level he's coached.

He has had a fabulously fun stretch at Maryland.

Relax.

[accinfo]

OMG you're a hater... WHY???

I love that you're making reference to the ACC Championship... that home game for Duke and UNC.

.

Nice, more excuses. Have you ever been to an ACC Tournament? Most of the fans besides the Duke fans root against Duke. Carolina does have many more fans in that state but at least half are rooting against them in ANY ACC Championship game.

How did Gary do when they played the last time in Washington DC? That is right they were out of the tournament 2 hours after it began losing to Clemson.

Even if you want to look at regular season Championships Gary has finished first alone just twice and tied twice for his conference #1 seed in 30 years.

Look at the records of Dean Smith, Mike Kryzezewski, Roy Williams, Lute Olsen, Bobby Knight, and even Jim Boehiem and take a peek at how many times they finished first.

[Jagwar]

I'd argue the poor development and luck before calling the best recruiting classes in school history poor.

Tell me, how are they the best recruiting classes in school history? And don't talk to me about how different sites rated them. I'm talking about pure results.

And IMO, the class of Gilchrist, McCray, Caner-Medley and Garrison (J Smith excluded) is one that I would just as soon forget. You have Gilchrist who leaves early, McCray who pulls a FUBAR by getting declared academically inelligible, Garrison as the softest power forward ever...

I loved Mike Jones and Strawberry, but that class included an overrated Ibekwe and two useless big men in Bowers and Fofana.

In any event, those recruiting classes are gone. The impact is more that there were 10 scholarships given to those classes, which impacted how many went to the 04-06 classes

[BaltimoreTerp]

Tell me, how are they the best recruiting classes in school history? And don't talk to me about how different sites rated them. I'm talking about pure results.

Then we aren't talking recruiting.

[Jagwar]

For the record, this is how those the "the best recruiting classes in school history " fared in postseason play

2002-03 class arrives

1 - NCAA tourney, lost in sweet 16 (this team still had Nicholas/Blake/Holden)

2003-04 class arrives

2 - NCAA tourney, lost in second round (won ACC tourney)

3 - NIT, lost in second round

4 - NIT, lost in first round

5 - NCAA, lost in second round

I can't call that a successful run. Mediocre at best, especially after winning a title and getting a new arena.

[Jagwar]

Then we aren't talking recruiting.

No, I don't rely on websites alone. I care about how a recruiting class plays together and contributes to the program's success. Mike Jones was the second ranked shooting guard behind Lebron James... how did that play out?

The class that included Dixon, Baxter and Miller was the best recruiting class ever. And the class with Rhodes, Simpkins, Lucas, Hipp and Joe Smith is up there too.

[BaltimoreTerp]

No, I don't rely on websites alone. I care about how a recruiting class plays together and contributes to the program's success. Mike Jones was the second ranked shooting guard behind Lebron James... how did that play out?

The class that included Dixon, Baxter and Miller was the best recruiting class ever. And the class with Rhodes, Simpkins, Lucas, Hipp and Joe Smith is up there too.

Recruiting isn't about results. It's about who is brought in.

Those two classes were as disappointing as any that another school could bring up, but they were top classes coming in.

That isn't a failure of recruiting, but of player development.

This is where the disconnect happens in this discussion.