Note to Boras---Wieters rated the 9th worst "framing"-

[DrungoHazewood]

In other words, if you told me the best framing catcher in the game can add between .5 and .8 WAR to his starters and another .2 to .4 WAR per reliever across the late innings, that wouldn't seem crazy to me.

It does to me. You're saying that (5 starters * .65 WAR) + (7 relievers * .3 WAR) = more than 5 wins a year just from one aspect of a catcher's performance. You're basically saying that someone like Molina could be replacement-level at everything except framing, and yet be a marginal MVP candidate. And if he managed to hit .250 with a .700 OPS and throw out 30% of basestealers? Watch out Mike Trout.

If you took Matt Wieters and added 5 wins of framing he'd be more valuable than Chris Davis or Miguel Cabrera or Robinson Cano.

[DrungoHazewood]

Maddon and Friedman certainly believe there is something significant there, and the Rays are on the cutting edge on analytics.

If anyone really believed he was worth 3, 4, 5 wins per year just with framing, on top of a half a win or a win from other facets of his game, then why does he keep getting one year contracts at the going rate of a fraction of a win?

[Stotle]

It does to me. You're saying that (5 starters * .65 WAR) + (7 relievers * .3 WAR) = more than 5 wins a year just from one aspect of a catcher's performance. You're basically saying that someone like Molina could be replacement-level at everything except framing, and yet be a marginal MVP candidate. And if he managed to hit .250 with a .700 OPS and throw out 30% of basestealers? Watch out Mike Trout.

If you took Matt Wieters and added 5 wins of framing he'd be more valuable than Chris Davis or Miguel Cabrera or Robinson Cano.

I'll be happy to engage in another discussion -- but sort out your hyperbole so I know what is meant as an honest point. Most of the above is nonsense, and I know you know that. You're a smart cookie.

[weams]

I'll be happy to engage in another discussion -- but sort out your hyperbole so I know what is meant as an honest point. Most of the above is nonsense, and I know you know that. You're a smart cookie.

I'll jump in. Like many fielding metrics, I don't believe that framing is a legitimate measure of value. Maybe ten years from now. To me it is kind of like when Greg Maddux got that pitch four inches off the plate, because he was Greg Maddux. I know that the defensive stats have been improving, but man, they are still all over the place.

[square634]

I'm not sure how to extricate catcher framing vs characteristics of the pitcher (movement, consistency of location/hitting near the target, etc)

[CA-ORIOLE]

If anyone really believed he was worth 3, 4, 5 wins per year just with framing, on top of a half a win or a win from other facets of his game, then why does he keep getting one year contracts at the going rate of a fraction of a win?

Again. The smartest guys in the room think there is something significant there. Again, Molina is below average in other aspects of the game. We're also talking about a guy who is uniquely superior at this by the studies.. I'd be more inclined to want to know what the smartest guy sees than wonder what the dumber ones think. So, I think you're asking the wrong question.

Molina averaged about 15 runs saved per year (from pitch framing) with a 35 run rate per 120 by the ref cited here. That over several years through 2011. The 50 runs saved in 2012 is likely an outliar.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I'm not sure how to extricate catcher framing vs characteristics of the pitcher (movement, consistency of location/hitting near the target, etc)

Be interesting to see how Molina's backup has done in comparison.

[Can_of_corn]

Be interesting to see how Molina's backup has done in comparison.

Matt Moore prefers Loboton

http://www.raysindex.com/2013/09/matt-moore-took-an-indirect-shot-at-jose-molina.html

[weams]

Again. The smartest guys in the room think there is something significant there. Again, Molina is below average in other aspects of the game. We're also talking about a guy who is uniquely superior at this by the studies.. I'd be more inclined to want to know what the smartest guy sees than wonder what the dumber ones think. So, I think you're asking the wrong question.

Molina averaged about 15 runs saved with a 35 run rate per 120 by the ref cited here. That over several years. The 50 runs saved in 2012 is likely an outliar.

You have a point. It is quite baffling. Do you have any idea how the 2012 could be so wrong?

[CA-ORIOLE]

You have a point. It is quite baffling. Do you have any idea how the 2012 could be so wrong?

No idea. I believe it was from an article COC pointed out and that it was a count and not a rate. Like defensive stats they could be quite unstable and require several years to aggregate. Like COC said, we've lost some continuity on this when Fast left. At least what we can see and is public.

[Ohfan67]

If someone posted an incomprehensible index that validates Santa Claus, then some of you guys would immediately go down to the mall, sit in Santa's lap, and ask for more WAR for Orioles players. Geez. If only Matt would have framed 50 pitches better, then we would have been watching the O's in the playoffs! Now no one can actually coach a top ML catcher to do that better and it's almost unquantifiable, but by gosh there's an index that some guy on the internet says works so it has to be really important. Right!? Right!?

[Stotle]

If someone posted an incomprehensible index that validates Santa Claus, then some of you guys would immediately go down to the mall, sit in Santa's lap, and ask for more WAR for Orioles players. Geez. If only Matt would have framed 50 pitches better, then we would have been watching the O's in the playoffs! Now no one can actually coach a top ML catcher to do that better and it's almost unquantifiable, but by gosh there's an index that some guy on the internet says works so it has to be really important. Right!? Right!?

Almost this entire post is wrong. There are specific drills for framing and teams that focus on this skill have identified characteristics of good and bad framers, from set-up to body to movements outside of the glove.

[Frobby]

Interesting article on this topic on Camden Depot today: http://camdendepot.blogspot.com/2013/12/2013-strikezone-analysis-catchers.html

[weams]

Interesting article on this topic on Camden Depot today: http://camdendepot.blogspot.com/2013/12/2013-strikezone-analysis-catchers.html

That's a good article. I am kinda convinced.

[clapdiddy]

Interesting article on this topic on Camden Depot today: http://camdendepot.blogspot.com/2013/12/2013-strikezone-analysis-catchers.html

I'd like to know how good Chris Hoiles was at this. While I know he didn't have a great arm, he always seemed to call a good game and I'd bet he was pretty good at "framing".