Jump to content

Grantland Front Page Article - Jonah Keri on Orioles, revenue factors, and the Quest for Greatness


furryburres

Recommended Posts

Got it. So that is your own "Type". It would probably be more effective to call it something else so you do get confused as referring to the old FA system that used that same term. I do absolutely see you point without the semantically argument ;)

Thanks ....fact is the Orioles have added more than a middling type free agent in years. I honestly don't believe that they care about winning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 186
  • Created
  • Last Reply
The Orioles' and Nationals' markets overlap. They're not exclusive to one another, and broadcasting within the market is not an all-or-nothing proposition. Moreover, the reason the Nationals get "extra" money is because the Orioles have been getting the overwhelming majority of the MASN money since the deal was signed. We're not just talking about "rights" fees here. Angelos has, in very simplistic terms, been able to exercise control over, and reap the benefits of, all programming and advertising for two major league teams. That is huge, even if subscriber fees are currently below market.

I don't hold Angelos in very high regard in a lot of areas, but engaging MLB in a legal contest in one in which I have to give him the nod. There's a reason the dispute is now entering its third year, and it's not because Angelos is helpless in the face of MLB's inexorable authority.

When you split the market the over lap becomes smaller. Northern VA, DC, and some other areas become exclusively Nats.

Nats shouldn't be getting money from MLB outside of the revenue sharing. It was never part of the deal.

It's hitting it's 3rd year because MLB hasn't decided what to do. Their panel is stuck and until they make a ruling or proposals it's gonna be stuck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks ....fact is the Orioles have added more than a middling type free agent in years. I honestly don't believe that they care about winning.

Sure they care about winning. Winning increases attendance and TV ratings and therefore increases revenue. They just want to win and make money at the same time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So if it's so apparent that the O's are going to get screwed, why doesn't Angelos proactively find a way to settle reasonably and get on with it? MLB and the Nationals have been trying to engage Angelos and his people on this front for years now.

The contract didn't require new valuation of the deal until 2013. So you can ask for anything you want for the 5 years after 2007 but until 2013 do you actually have a right to engage in the process to do the valuation. That's the process.

Why settle? You hold out until you have the upper hand. What you really have here is PA vs Lerner. Both PA and Lerner want their teams to win (despite the view here) because a winner will gain more market share. Lerner has deeper pockets and spend to win, PA is playing money ball (so to speak) and hoping to win. PA doesn't want to give up exclusive rights and I wouldn't either without a huge pay day and guaranteed equal TV payouts by a 3rd party. In TV land, the smaller market of the two markets in play here will get the smaller payout and that will screw the O's as Baltimore is the smaller market.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Orioles could be spending about 140m or so on player salaries, but Angelos chooses not to according to this extremely thorough accounting exercise. Very little "guesswork" for the apologists.

56m alone in PROFIT from MASN every year, and not one penny of it spent on the team.

I wish I could quote the entire article, go ahead and read it. TONS more info in there that show exactly how much money MASN is making, while Angelos spends not one dime of it on the team.

Youn want numbers? Details? It is all there. Dispute that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I respect you. But every thing you mentioned is a complete supposition. We know nothing. Jon Snow.

Not true.

MLB is proving each team an incremental $25M in 2014 from the national TV contract.

The payroll numbers are per ESPN and one would expect them to be much more than directionally correct.

Attendance is up the past few years.

The numbers above are factual as opposed to supposition.

I would classify the Forbes cash flow proxy and the WaPo Lerner's $8M check as significantly more accurate than supposition.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The contract didn't require new valuation of the deal until 2013. So you can ask for anything you want for the 5 years after 2007 but until 2013 do you actually have a right to engage in the process to do the valuation. That's the process.

Why settle? You hold out until you have the upper hand. What you really have here is PA vs Lerner. Both PA and Lerner want their teams to win (despite the view here) because a winner will gain more market share. Lerner has deeper pockets and spend to win, PA is playing money ball (so to speak) and hoping to win. PA doesn't want to give up exclusive rights and I wouldn't either without a huge pay day and guaranteed equal TV payouts by a 3rd party. In TV land, the smaller market of the two markets in play here will get the smaller payout and that will screw the O's as Baltimore is the smaller market.

Wrong! Angelos might be interested in winning a lawsuit against Lerner. And he's interested in making money off the Orioles gate and making money off of both via MASN. His investment in the team shows he's not really that interested.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The contract didn't require new valuation of the deal until 2013. So you can ask for anything you want for the 5 years after 2007 but until 2013 do you actually have a right to engage in the process to do the valuation. That's the process.

Why settle? You hold out until you have the upper hand. What you really have here is PA vs Lerner. Both PA and Lerner want their teams to win (despite the view here) because a winner will gain more market share. Lerner has deeper pockets and spend to win, PA is playing money ball (so to speak) and hoping to win. PA doesn't want to give up exclusive rights and I wouldn't either without a huge pay day and guaranteed equal TV payouts by a 3rd party. In TV land, the smaller market of the two markets in play here will get the smaller payout and that will screw the O's as Baltimore is the smaller market.

If PA wants to win, how come he hasn't spent any money the last two years on players to help the team win? As of now, the dumpster diving is producing question marks at key positions, AKA hoping to win by being cheap, not wanting to win.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sure they care about winning. Winning increases attendance and TV ratings and therefore increases revenue. They just want to win and make money at the same time.

As long as it has nothing to do with paying for talent ...essentially competing for a free agent. The Orioles were horrible from the last time they won the division to one season a few years ago...the owner did little to improve the team...the owner had a good drawing team and stopped spending for the most part when they had good draws.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The very end of the article pointed out one of the biggest problems - doing nothing is the wrong approach. For the past 2 off-seasons the Orioles have had the opportunity to build around a relatively solid nucleus of talent and they have failed to do anything to improve the team. This MASN debate is nonsense b/c the Orioles don't need to break the bank to improve the team. Bringing in an avg 2nd baseman and an avg DH would go a long way.

The article used Davis and Wieters as examples. Either Angelos is willing to sign them to long term deals or he isn't. If he is, then get it done. If he isn't, then trade them for prospects. Instead, the Orioles are doing absolutely nothing and that is the wrong approach.

Peter Angelos is one of the worst owners in professional sports. If Angelos isn't going to appropriately spend money on the team then why should I?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wish I could quote the entire article, go ahead and read it. TONS more info in there that show exactly how much money MASN is making, while Angelos spends not one dime of it on the team.

Youn want numbers? Details? It is all there. Dispute that.

I'll have to read the whole article over the weekend, but the part about MASN definitely has some incorrect information about (1) the rights fees currently paid out, and (2) the percentage of MASN currently owned by the Orioles. That's not to contradict the general conclusion that there appear to be significant profits residing within MASN.

I have to say, there's not one bit of information in that section about MASN that hasn't been discussed in detail in this thread already. I don't know about the rest of the article.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Orioles could be spending about 140m or so on player salaries, but Angelos chooses not to according to this extremely thorough accounting exercise. Very little "guesswork" for the apologists.

]

Let's do that math for ya.. since you failed at the most basic premise.

56m alone in PROFIT from MASN every year, and not one penny of it spent on the team.

Of that 56m, Nats get 13% of that, that's 7m. That means the O's get $46M, not the 54m you say.

But the problem is you assume PA owns all of the 87%. He doesn't 24% of it is owned by Tom Clancy estate (which we know comes of that 12%) and his ex-wife owns 12%. That's $11m to them, okay.. so that's $35m left to Angelos.

I wish I could quote the entire article, go ahead and read it. TONS more info in there that show exactly how much money MASN is making, while Angelos spends not one dime of it on the team.

Youn want numbers? Details? It is all there. Dispute that.

I don't have to read the rest of the article to know these facts and what it costs to run a team.. unlike mid and late '90s fans aren't going to games at record rates which that loss has to be made up somewhere. Let's math blow your mind here.

If Oriole Park is sold out:

Oriole Park sits 45,971. Avg ticket cost $28.4. Or average take is $1,307,619 a game. Over 81 home games that's $106m.

Problem is Oriole Park hasn't had attendance in the 40,000 range since 2000. In 2013 attendance was 29,105. That's only $67m in ticket sales.

So every year the O's are over the $67m in ticket sales, money is being put in the club. In comes that left over MASN money that you say should be spent.

When the O's have 35-40,000 fans at a game, you'll see $130m payroll. Until then.. MASN money is getting blown on keeping the payroll between the $85-$100m range because the O's are losing $30m a year in unrealized ticket sales.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.




  • Posts

    • Yeah the amenities are pretty outdated at the yard and they seem to do nothing year over year to improve them. The touchscreens have been banged on to death to the point they barely function, so you can't accurately fill out your order at the kiosks, and they don't have a way for the people behind the counter to ring you up at many of the food places. The sound is low to non-existent in certain sections of the club level, like around 218. Seems like there should be speakers that reach there but they might have been damaged by rain, etc. and they are too lazy to fix them. If you go to a game that's even slightly busy, you will wait forever to get into the bathroom, and the sink will be an absolute mess with no soap or paper towels. It's even worse on the club level where they have one sink that's right by the door. Nearby businesses don't care, either. The Hilton parking garage reeks of decay, pot and human waste. They don't turn on the air circulation fans, even if cars are waiting for an hour and a half to exit from P3, filling up the air with carbon monoxide. They only let you enter the stadium with one 20 oz bottle of water. It's so expensive to buy a drink or water in the stadium, but with all the salty food, 20 oz of water isn't enough, especially on a hot day. Vegetarian food options are poor to none, other than things like chips, fries, hot pretzels and the occasional pizza. Vida Taco is better, but at an inconvenient location for many seats. The doors on the club level are not accessible. They're anti-accessible. Big, heavy doors you have to go through to get to/from the escalators, and big, heavy doors to get to your seats, none of them automatic (or even with the option to be automatic with a button press). Makes it hard to carry food out to your seats even if not handicapped. The furniture in the lounges on the club level seem designed to allow as few people as possible to sit down. Not great when we have so many rain delays during the season. Should put more, smaller chairs in and allow more of the club level ticket holders to have a seat while waiting for thunderstorms to pass. They keep a lot of the entrance/exit gates closed except for playoff/sellout games, which means people have to slowly "mooooo" all the way down Eutaw St to get to parking. They are too cheap to staff all the gates, so they make people exit by the warehouse, even though it would be a lot more convenient for many fans to open all the gates. Taking Light Rail would be super convenient, except that if there's at least 20k fans in attendance, it's common to have to wait 90-120 minutes to be able to board a non-full train heading toward Glen Burnie. A few trains might come by, but they are already full, or fill up fast when folks walk up to the Convention Center stop to pre-empt the folks trying to board at Camden Station. None of the garages in the area are set up to require pre-payment on entry (reservation, or give them your card / digital payment at the entrance till). If they were, emptying out the garage would be very quick, as they wouldn't need to ticket anyone on the way out: if you can't get in without paying, you can always just leave without having to stop and scan your phone or put a ticket in the machine. They shut down the Sports Legends Museum at Camden Station in 2015 because the Maryland Stadium Authority was too greedy. That place was a fun distraction if you were in the area when a game wasn't about to start, like if you show up super early on Opening Day or a playoff day. Superbook's restaurant on Eutaw is a huge downgrade from Dempsey's in terms of menu and service quality. Dempsey's used to be well-staffed, you could reserve a table online, and they had all kinds of great selection for every diet. Superbook seems like just another bar serving the same swill that the rest of the park serves, with extremely minimal and low-quality food. For that matter, most of the food at the stadium is very low quality these days. A lot of things we used to love are made to a lower standard now if they are served at all. These are gripes about the stadium and the area that haven't changed my entire adult life. Going to an O's game requires one to tolerate many small inconveniences and several major inconveniences, any number of which could easily be fixed by the relevant authorities if they gave a damn about the people who pay to come see the team play. You would think a mid-market team would be able to afford to invest in the fan experience. You would think the city and partnering organizations like garages, the Stadium Authority and MTA would at least try to do their part to make the experience enjoyable and free of kinks. You would think they would put some thought into handling the "growing pains" of the fanbase due to recent renewed interest after the dark years. Instead, all we get is the same indifference and the same annoyances year in and year out. The whole area is overdue for a revamp. Not sure if $600 mil will get it done, but at least it's a start. Hopefully they can start to patch up some of the many holes in the fan experience. If you're not going to invest in Burnes, at least make it so paying customers have an easier, more enjoyable time getting to/from the stadium and having some food while we're there.
    • Elias has only been in rebuild mode with the O's so there's not much to speculate on there.  Houston, where he spent his formative years, doesn't seem to like to be on the hook for more than a couple of big long-term contracts at any given time.  I can see that as being Elias' choice as well, albeit with a lower overall cost - Houston runs a big payroll.  But it's all guesswork.  I really don't know. If Elias takes the 2025 payroll to $150 million it will creep up to $200 million or so by 2028 just from keeping the core together.  That's where I start to wonder about sustainability due to market size, economic forces, etc., etc., etc... If it were up to me, I would add a couple of free agents this offseason even if the contracts were longer than ideal and be conservative about extensions elsewhere until the prospects establish themselves a little better.  I think there's a competitive opportunity that the team is already into that's worth exploiting. I think ownership is very happy to have Elias on board and they're not inclined to force him to do anything.  I also think Rubenstein's demonstrated business prowess is great enough to assume that he has had plenty enough time to come to a mutual understanding with Elias as to goals.
    • We need a RH O’hearn…in addition to Westburg. At least 3 batters that will push up the pitch count and cause damage in the top 5 of the lineup.
    • Boy,  that Jackson Merrill is a good young player that is playing his best ball down the season stretch and in the playoffs.   He's only 21.  I guess some young guys are able to play up to the pressure.   Who could have guessed that?
    • I’m aware.   You are arguing something im Not.
    • What agreement? The agreement you are talking about happened as a result of the move.  The MASN agreement would not have existed if Angelos had gone to court to block the move.
    • I’m saying the Os had an agreement with MLB and that should have held up.  Been pretty clear about that. 
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...