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Grantland Front Page Article - Jonah Keri on Orioles, revenue factors, and the Quest for Greatness


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Wrong! Angelos might be interested in winning a lawsuit against Lerner. And he's interested in making money off the Orioles gate and making money off of both via MASN. His investment in the team shows he's not really that interested.

He's not making massive amounts of money off the O's or MASN. Oriole Park is roughly 50-60% filled each game on average. Losing 40-50% in ticket sales means that money comes from somewhere else.

He is either profiting off the O's or MASN.. not both. And his profits are literally a ROI of less then 5%.

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If PA wants to win, how come he hasn't spent any money the last two years on players to help the team win? As of now, the dumpster diving is producing question marks at key positions, AKA hoping to win by being cheap, not wanting to win.

You don't have to spend huge amounts of money on players. As it's been proven in the last two years. There is also the position that maybe Buck and DD want certain players and not those you want. GM and Manager can ask for a player and go to PA. I haven't heard one thing saying PA didn't and wasn't willing to get a player if the GM and Manager said we want this guy.

In fact we've learned so far this off season.. the O's, be it DD and Buck aren't high on losing draft picks for middle of the road pitching. But are willing to spend on players that won't cost a draft pick.

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He's not making massive amounts of money off the O's or MASN. Oriole Park is roughly 50-60% filled each game on average. Losing 40-50% in ticket sales means that money comes from somewhere else.

He is either profiting off the O's or MASN.. not both. And his profits are literally a ROI of less then 5%.

What on Earth has convinced you that MASN and ticket sales are the Orioles' only sources of revenue?

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What on Earth has convinced you that MASN and ticket sales are the Orioles' only sources of revenue?

I am not saying it is. But it is the two largest revenue streams for the O's. Concessions, Sponsorship, Parking are just $34m (rough guess) of O's revenue. Of that O's have to pay back part of to the State for the bonds to build Oriole Park and pay rent. So in reality you are talking about $25-$30m the O's get to keep.

Then you have to account for costs of facilities, staff, other employees and minor leagues and so on. That $25-$30m gets eaten up pretty quickly. Which leaves Gate and TV money.

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Of that 56m, Nats get 13% of that, that's 7m. That means the O's get $46M, not the 54m you say.

But the problem is you assume PA owns all of the 87%. He doesn't 24% of it is owned by Tom Clancy estate (which we know comes of that 12%) and his ex-wife owns 12%. That's $11m to them, okay.. so that's $35m left to Angelos.

The entire premise that the Orioles group owns 87% of MASN is wrong. The Nats moved here in 2005. MASN started broadcasting in mid-2006. The Nats' ownership interest started at 10% and increases by 1% a year. This will be the Nats' 10th season in Washington, and MASN has been broadcasting for 7.5 seasons. So unless I'm missing something, the Orioles own somewhere between 81 and 83% of MASN, depending on whether the 1% a year change started in 2005 (when the Nats moved here), 2006 (when MASN started broadcasting), or 2007 (the first full year). Yes, I know there have been articles written citing 87%, but I believe that's just lazy journalists reading old stuff and not updating it for new articles.

This is very important, because the profit estimates are being extrapolated from reports that the Nats got a $7 mm profit distribution in 2011. If the Nats owned 13% that implies profits were about $54 mm. But if the Nats owned 17%, then that implies profits of $41 mm. That's a pretty big difference (though either way, it suggests MASN was quite profitable).

I think your information on the percentage ownership of the Orioles group is wrong. Originally, Angleos owned only 51% of the Orioles. Clancy and his wife jointly owned 24%, and after they divorced, each owned 12%. But there are a bunch of other owners, like Steve Geppi, Harvey Meyerhoff, Barry Levinson and Pam Schriver. http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2000-03-24/sports/0003240206_1_clancy-wanda-sachs Here's a full list (not necessarily current) from Sports Business Daily:

Investors include

Tom Clancy, Wanda T. King, Stephen

A. Geppi, Harvey M. Meyerhoff, David

H. Bernstein, Edward J. Brush, Barry

Levinson, Pat Smyth, Roger R. Blunt, Pam

Shriver, William P. Beatson, Jim McKay,

Alfred Tyler II, George P. Stamas, James

S. Riepe, John H. Laporte, Wayne R.

Gioioso Sr. and Jack B. Dunn IV.

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/images/rgfb/ProTeams.pdf

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The entire premise that the Orioles group owns 87% of MASN is wrong. The Nats moved here in 2005. MASN started broadcasting in mid-2006. The Nats' ownership interest started at 10% and increases by 1% a year. This will be the Nats' 10th season in Washington, and MASN has been broadcasting for 7.5 seasons. So unless I'm missing something, the Orioles own somewhere between 81 and 83% of MASN, depending on whether the 1% a year change started in 2005 (when the Nats moved here), 2006 (when MASN started broadcasting), or 2007 (the first full year).

This is very important, because the profit estimates are being extrapolated from reports that the Nats got a $7 mm profit distribution in 2011. If the Nats owned 13% that implies profits were about $54 mm. But if the Nats owned 17%, then that implies profits of $41 mm. That's a pretty big difference (though either way, it suggests MASN was quite profitable).

I think your information on the percentage ownership of the Orioles group is wrong. Originally, Angleos owned only 51% of the Orioles. Clancy and his wife jointly owned 24%, and after they divorced, each owned 12%. But there are a bunch of other owners, like Steve Geppi, Harvey Meyerhoff, Barry Levinson and Pam Schriver. http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2000-03-24/sports/0003240206_1_clancy-wanda-sachs Here's a full list (not necessarily current) from Sports Business Daily:

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/images/rgfb/ProTeams.pdf

Actually Frobby, we agree. I am just going by the numbers others are throwing out like they (Tradeangelos) know something. And I know there are more co-owners but others don't want to hear it. I've gone and explained it in the past to the mere ignorant, I just tired of going into more and more detail with that bunch.

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You don't have to spend huge amounts of money on players. As it's been proven in the last two years. There is also the position that maybe Buck and DD want certain players and not those you want. GM and Manager can ask for a player and go to PA. I haven't heard one thing saying PA didn't and wasn't willing to get a player if the GM and Manager said we want this guy.

In fact we've learned so far this off season.. the O's, be it DD and Buck aren't high on losing draft picks for middle of the road pitching. But are willing to spend on players that won't cost a draft pick.

Where did I write "huge amounts of money on players?" When have I ever advocated for spending huge amounts on a guy like Cano and Ellsbury? You don't have to be the Yankees or Red Sox or Dodgers to take calculated risks and play in free agency. There are options available in free agency that could've made this team better and not cost them a pick.

So why didn't we get Arroyo at 2 years 19? Why not sign Corey Hart? Why not go after a buy-low guy like LoMo? These guys didn't cost draft picks or cost "huge amounts of money."

Am I wrong?

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I am not saying it is. But it is the two largest revenue streams for the O's. Concessions, Sponsorship, Parking are just $34m (rough guess) of O's revenue. Of that O's have to pay back part of to the State for the bonds to build Oriole Park and pay rent. So in reality you are talking about $25-$30m the O's get to keep.

Then you have to account for costs of facilities, staff, other employees and minor leagues and so on. That $25-$30m gets eaten up pretty quickly. Which leaves Gate and TV money.

You are forgetting the money every team gets from MLB, which derives from national TV contracts, MLB.com, and merchandise sales. That's a huge amount of money. Forbes pegged the Orioles' 2012 revenue at $206 mm, exclusive of MASN profits (but including the rights fees paid by MASN to the team). Only $56 mm of that was gate receipts.

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You know what the funny thing is? If the warehouse employee who didn't bother to read anything but the tiny excerpt I posted read the entire article, he would see where all these numbers come from. He would see how wrong he is with pretty much everything he said, and would also realize that twas not TradeAngelos that came up with these calculations, but someone else who took an immense amount of time to crunch the numbers. Someone who actually knows what they are talking about, unlike him.

It actually breaks down who owns what, how all the minority investors play into things, rights fees, Orioles/MASN money trail and all the little details about what money is "available" and what isn't and when.

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You are forgetting the money every team gets from MLB, which derives from national TV contracts, MLB.com, and merchandise sales. That's a huge amount of money. Forbes pegged the Orioles' 2012 revenue at $206 mm, exclusive of MASN profits (but including the rights fees paid by MASN to the team). Only $56 mm of that was gate receipts.

Of course they do. MLB TV deal and MASN tv deal in 2013 left a gap of $35m for the O's.

Merchandise sales is subject to revenue sharing along with the others I posted above. MLB takes 31% from each team. Then doles it out. But Forbes (Bloomberg) evaluation doesn't add up. They claim $206m in revenue. But the numbers the provide only add up to $166m before revenue sharing.

Next comes the the part I mention above. The payouts Orioles have to make to the State of Maryland and Baltimore for the construction of Camden Yards. O's pay 7% of total ticket revenue (plus $5,000 per "extra" game"), 10% or less (not defined) concessions, 50% of the Orioles? parking receipts, 25% of the advertising revenues and 7-10% percent of suite and club-level admissions.

Typically is $8-$10m a year. So, that's $176m in actual revenue that isn't touchable.

So if team has a $100m payroll, that leave $76m to pay for travel, coaches, medical staff, insurance, international signs, interest on debt and so on.

Is PA making a profit yes.. but it's not massive.

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Where did I write "huge amounts of money on players?" When have I ever advocated for spending huge amounts on a guy like Cano and Ellsbury? You don't have to be the Yankees or Red Sox or Dodgers to take calculated risks and play in free agency. There are options available in free agency that could've made this team better and not cost them a pick.

So why didn't we get Arroyo at 2 years 19? Why not sign Corey Hart? Why not go after a buy-low guy like LoMo? These guys didn't cost draft picks or cost "huge amounts of money."

Am I wrong?

I never said you advocated it. What I am saying is O's did try and get Arroyo, he wanted to stay in the National League. You can't fault the O's for that.

Corey Hart is a RH hitter. Not something the O's need. O's needed lefties, If you look O's added LH hitter who plays the field.

Kendrys Morales wasn't gonna be added cause well his not worth losing a draft pick at $14m plus.

"LoMo" or Logan Morrison was traded for Carter Capps.A pitcher with another 2 years before arb for a player who hits arb next year but just signed a $1.7m one year deal. "LoMo" wasn't and isn't even close to a replacement option for us, go look at his numbers. He hasn't gave even 1 WAR since 2010. That was a good pass.

Getting Lough (LH) for Valencia (RH) was actually a good trade on our part. Valencia hits arb in 2015, Lough is arb eligible in 2016. O's get a LH hitter who hits lefties (unlike McLouth) and is better defensively. Could be a led off hitter for the future.

O's didn't lose on Valencia because they just replaced him with Delmon Young.

O's moves were smart and got what they wanted at that time. Then they went out when the FA frenzy slowed down and sought some pitching. Balfour thing is whatever. We'll find out if he becomes honorary leader of the DL this year. But they did seek Arroyo (which I would have been pissed over), AJ Burnett, and Yoon.

Who knows maybe O's toss money at Jimenez or Santana sometime this week.

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You know what the funny thing is? If the warehouse employee who didn't bother to read anything but the tiny excerpt I posted read the entire article, he would see where all these numbers come from. He would see how wrong he is with pretty much everything he said, and would also realize that twas not TradeAngelos that came up with these calculations, but someone else who took an immense amount of time to crunch the numbers. Someone who actually knows what they are talking about, unlike him.

It actually breaks down who owns what, how all the minority investors play into things, rights fees, Orioles/MASN money trail and all the little details about what money is "available" and what isn't and when.

The numbers were all wrong, bud. When you show correct numbers of the owners and all that. I've done it SEVERAL times on this forum and I've been asked to write an article on it for OH and I passed because well... people like you who think they know it all and are so caught up in not the facts and numbers but confirming your own bias.

I don't work for the FO and never will as I am not a big fan of PA the person and yes, I've met him a few times and know a few people with in the FO. So we are clear I don't work for the Orioles. I live in Columbus, Ohio for reference. Pretty damn hard to work in FO of the Baltimore Orioles when you live in Columbus, Ohio isn't it?

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