Drungo's Blog About Pitchers Throwing Harder Today - Question?

[weams]

I think we're in violent agreement.

That MLB pitchers, as a whole, never threw this hard before?

[Redskins Rick]

Logically, that makes perfect sense that he did throw in the 91-94 range with his fastball,as he wasn't quite as fast as Palmer, who I believe had to throw in the 93-96 range in his prime. Heck, Jim was throwing 88 mph at age 44 when attempting a comeback after not pitching at all for several years. This seems accurate to me.

From an old guy that saw Palmer throw in person. I do not believe he was in the mid 90 range.

I put him at the low end of 91-94. IMO

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2202&dat=19710505&id=onYlAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1fIFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1536,4899251

For Palmer, it was more about plate location of the fastball and not just blowing it by the hitter like some of them were doing.

[Frobby]

Logically, that makes perfect sense that he did throw in the 91-94 range with his fastball,as he wasn't quite as fast as Palmer, who I believe had to throw in the 93-96 range in his prime. Heck, Jim was throwing 88 mph at age 44 when attempting a comeback after not pitching at all for several years. This seems accurate to me.

According to this article, Palmer's fastball "barely broke 80" during his attempted comeback. http://seamheads.com/2010/02/08/jim-palmers-attempted-comeback/

Frankly, we didn't hear much about radar guns or the speed of pitchers in those days, except maybe for the 4-5 top strikeout guys. We certainly weren't getting readings during broadcasts, or at the ballpark. But Palmer only finished in the top 5 in strikeouts three times in his career (never higher than 4th), and in all three of those, he was either 1st or 2nd in innings pitched, and he never finished in the top 10 for strikeouts per nine innings. He wasn't a huge strikeout guy compared to some of his contemporaries.

[weams]

According to this article, Palmer's fastball "barely broke 80" during his attempted comeback. http://seamheads.com/2010/02/08/jim-palmers-attempted-comeback/

Frankly, we didn't hear much about radar guns or the speed of pitchers in those days, except maybe for the 4-5 top strikeout guys. We certainly weren't getting readings during broadcasts, or at the ballpark. But Palmer only finished in the top 5 in strikeouts three times in his career (never higher than 4th), and in all three of those, he was either 1st or 2nd in innings pitched, and he never finished in the top 10 for strikeouts per nine innings. He wasn't a huge strikeout guy compared to some of his contemporaries.

I'm glad you pointed all this out.

[MurphDogg]

According to this article, Palmer's fastball "barely broke 80" during his attempted comeback. http://seamheads.com/2010/02/08/jim-palmers-attempted-comeback/

Frankly, we didn't hear much about radar guns or the speed of pitchers in those days, except maybe for the 4-5 top strikeout guys. We certainly weren't getting readings during broadcasts, or at the ballpark. But Palmer only finished in the top 5 in strikeouts three times in his career (never higher than 4th), and in all three of those, he was either 1st or 2nd in innings pitched, and he never finished in the top 10 for strikeouts per nine innings. He wasn't a huge strikeout guy compared to some of his contemporaries.

80 was on the high end of estimates, the Associated Press reported that his fastball during the attempted comeback was "barely reaching 75".

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-03-12/sports/sp-305_1_spring-training

[MurphDogg]

From an old guy that saw Palmer throw in person. I do not believe he was in the mid 90 range.

I put him at the low end of 91-94. IMO

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2202&dat=19710505&id=onYlAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1fIFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1536,4899251

For Palmer, it was more about plate location of the fastball and not just blowing it by the hitter like some of them were doing.

Palmer was known to take something off his fastball and reach back when he needed to. Mike Boddicker is quoted in this article saying, "I was lucky enough to be with the Orioles when we went to get that max pitch every once in a while when you needed it. Jim Palmer taught me that. He was 85-87, and then, bang, he was 93 when he needed it."

[Frobby]

Palmer was known to take something off his fastball and reach back when he needed to. Mike Boddicker is quoted in this article saying, "I was lucky enough to be with the Orioles when we went to get that max pitch every once in a while when you needed it. Jim Palmer taught me that. He was 85-87, and then, bang, he was 93 when he needed it."

Sounds about right. One thing about Palmer, his four seamer had great late life, somewhat akin to Koji Uehara's. So he didn't need to have top velocity to be effective with his fastball.

[DrungoHazewood]

Palmer was known to take something off his fastball and reach back when he needed to. Mike Boddicker is quoted in this article saying, "I was lucky enough to be with the Orioles when we went to get that max pitch every once in a while when you needed it. Jim Palmer taught me that. He was 85-87, and then, bang, he was 93 when he needed it."

That was standard operating procedure for almost everyone until maybe the last 20-30 years. Moreso the further back in time you went. The whole reason that pitchers used to throw 300, 400 innings a year and now they max out at 225 or so is that they used to pace. In the deadball era Christy Mathewson wrote about this in Pitching in A Pinch, and I'd guess that the average fastball was 15-20 mph slower than today. When your average guy was 5' 10", 165 pounds and hit two homers a year in a big park with an old, battered baseball you could do that. Even in the 50s-70s most teams had half the lineup with little power.

[BRobinsonfan]

That's a game-generated page from OOTP Baseball. Probably sourced from some random guy who makes roster sets. Almost no chance they happened upon long-lost radar data.

Also OOTP ages, develops, injures players over time, so who knows what it was when they typed it in. And nothing was stopping anyone from typing in his velocity as "100 mph+".

My thinking is that as physical boundaries continue to be pushed, as objectively timed and measured sports continue to see their records fall with some regularity, it would be odd if a standard MLB fastball in 1965 was faster than in 1985. Especially with less pacing of starter over time. So, if a MLB fastball was no more than 85-88 mph in 1965, Phoebus would have been notable and remarkable and often remarked-upon if he regularly threw 95+.

See the bolded part above...YES!

[BRobinsonfan]

According to this article, Palmer's fastball "barely broke 80" during his attempted comeback. http://seamheads.com/2010/02/08/jim-palmers-attempted-comeback/

Well this article must be wrong 'cause OldFan said it was 88.

[Redskins Rick]

Well this article must be wrong 'cause OldFan said it was 88.

And old guy is never wrong. :rofl:

[weams]

And old guy is never wrong. :rofl:

I remember Sam McDowell throwing real hard. And Bob Gibson had some heat. Obviously Nolan Ryan.

[Redskins Rick]

I remember Sam McDowell throwing real hard. And Bob Gibson had some heat. Obviously Nolan Ryan.

Koufax too.

Gibson probably threw the hardest that I can remember.