Drungo's Blog About Pitchers Throwing Harder Today - Question?

[DrungoHazewood]

Of course that could be due to being moved off the mound, or being encouraged to play other sports.

I guess. Where do they go (in baseball, that is)? Catcher?

[DrungoHazewood]

Hazewood, you can be just as incorrigible and just as arrogant as Old Fan sometimes.

Also, another source has Phoebus throwing his fastball between, 91 and 93 M.P.H.

http://antiquityleague.anthonygiacalone.net/news/html/players/player_2146.html

That's a game-generated page from OOTP Baseball. Probably sourced from some random guy who makes roster sets. Almost no chance they happened upon long-lost radar data.

Also OOTP ages, develops, injures players over time, so who knows what it was when they typed it in. And nothing was stopping anyone from typing in his velocity as "100 mph+".

Also, making presumptions based on "Since I was a kid in the mid 80's, this was considered the norm, so if anything extraordinary were happening 20 years earlier, I think I would have heard about it" is specious, at best.

My thinking is that as physical boundaries continue to be pushed, as objectively timed and measured sports continue to see their records fall with some regularity, it would be odd if a standard MLB fastball in 1965 was faster than in 1985. Especially with less pacing of starter over time. So, if a MLB fastball was no more than 85-88 mph in 1965, Phoebus would have been notable and remarkable and often remarked-upon if he regularly threw 95+.

[OFFNY]

That's a game-generated page from OOTP Baseball. Probably sourced from some random guy who makes roster sets. Almost no chance they happened upon long-lost radar data.

Also OOTP ages, develops, injures players over time, so who knows what it was when they typed it in. And nothing was stopping anyone from typing in his velocity as "100 mph+".

My thinking is that as physical boundaries continue to be pushed, as objectively timed and measured sports continue to see their records fall with some regularity, it would be odd if a standard MLB fastball in 1965 was faster than in 1985. Especially with less pacing of starter over time. So, if a MLB fastball was no more than 85-88 mph in 1965, Phoebus would have been notable and remarkable and often remarked-upon if he regularly threw 95+.

You have no proof (and neither do I) how fast Phoebus threw or didn't throw.

Period.

You can presume, or use whatever logic you want, but you have no way of knowing (or proving) just how fast he threw, or just how fast that he didn't throw.

Your thinking of the progression of physical boundaries being pushed over the years, and/or what "remarks that you have or haven't heard" about Phoebus is no more empirical evidence about how fast Phoebus threw than is Old Fan claiming that Phoebus threw that fast because "he saw him pitch," and/or because "he threw a no-hitter."

[Can_of_corn]

I guess. Where do they go (in baseball, that is)? Catcher?

Sure.

Maybe Shortstop?

I was just spitballing.

I think that it probably is some sort of factor.

[DrungoHazewood]

You have no proof (and neither do I) how fast Phoebus threw or didn't throw.

Period.

You can presume, or use whatever logic you want, but you have no way of knowing (or proving) just how fast he threw, or just how fast that he didn't throw.

Your thinking of the progression of physical boundaries being pushed over the years, and/or what "remarks that you have or haven't heard" about Phoebus is no more empirical evidence about how fast Phoebus threw than is Old Fan claiming that Phoebus threw that fast because "he saw him pitch," and/or because "he threw a no-hitter."

No, I have no proof. I just think the preponderance of the circumstantial evidence says that there's no way he regularly threw 95 mph.

[Old#5fan]

Nolan Ryan threw very hard. And he is of the more modern era as well.

Actually, it depends on what point of Ryan's long career you view him in. I believe his rookie year was 69 with the Mets and Phoebus was probably still around or if not, had ended his career shortly before that (via injury I believe).

[Old#5fan]

I most certainly do. He was 5' 8", 180ish. How many starting pitchers are there today who are of that stature who regularly throw in the mid-to-high 90s?

He was short but powerful. Kind of resembled a little bulldog. He looked pretty strong to me as well, especially as a kid.

[Old#5fan]

No, I have no proof. I just think the preponderance of the circumstantial evidence says that there's no way he regularly threw 95 mph.

Well, he may not have regularly thrown that but not too many starters even today "regularly" throw 95 as in averaging that the average number of innings Phoebus likely threw per start. Back then they didn't pull a start via pitch count in the 5th inning like they do nowadays. I believe though he probably was capable of hitting 95 easily though. In fact, he may have been really feeling his oats that day he threw the no-no. Sometimes, adreneline kicks in when a pitcher is throwing a no-hitter. He may easily have been hitting that even near the end of the game, unfortunately we have no way of knowing for sure either way. I do think he ended his career prematurely due to arm/shoulder injury, which again is another sign of a hard thrower. Soft tossers don't usually have their career ended like that.

[weams]

You have no proof (and neither do I) how fast Phoebus threw or didn't throw.

Period.

You can presume, or use whatever logic you want, but you have no way of knowing (or proving) just how fast he threw, or just how fast that he didn't throw.

Your thinking of the progression of physical boundaries being pushed over the years, and/or what "remarks that you have or haven't heard" about Phoebus is no more empirical evidence about how fast Phoebus threw than is Old Fan claiming that Phoebus threw that fast because "he saw him pitch," and/or because "he threw a no-hitter."

I believe, based on watching Tom pitch and what I now know to be pretty good data, that he did not throw as hard as Jim Palmer. Or Sam McDowell, or Nolan Ryan. I don't think he threw as hard as Bob Gibson. I'd guess that Drungo is not too far from wrong. The point of making him an example was to refute Drungo's belief that today's pitchers throw harder. Not to guess the velocity of a smallish pitcher from our youth. I'd say that using Tom Phoebus to dispute the blog is probably a non starter. I am not saying that either of them are correct. I just believe the argument fails the sniff test for me. I do believe that all methods of testing velocity from the 50's and 60's is bad data.

[weams]

He was short but powerful. Kind of resembled a little bulldog. He looked pretty strong to me as well, especially as a kid.

As a kid, all of those guys were amazing to me. I used to think Dave McNally threw hard.

[Old#5fan]

As a kid, all of those guys were amazing to me. I used to think Dave McNally threw hard.

Me too. I still am amazed when I go to OPACY and watch from right above the bullpen how hard these guys throw compared to a "normal" non-professional pitcher. One guy though I didn't think threw hard even as a kid was Stu Miller. He was amazing though! Really fun to watch him making fools of hitters.

[Old#5fan]

I believe, based on watching Tom pitch and what I now know to be pretty good data, that he did not throw as hard as Jim Palmer. Or Sam McDowell, or Nolan Ryan. I don't think he threw as hard as Bob Gibson. I'd guess that Drungo is not too far from wrong. The point of making him an example was to refute Drungo's belief that today's pitchers throw harder. Not to guess the velocity of a smallish pitcher from our youth. I'd say that using Tom Phoebus to dispute the blog is probably a non starter. I am not saying that either of them are correct. I just believe the argument fails the sniff test for me. I do believe that all methods of testing velocity from the 50's and 60's is bad data.

This is one of the best posts I have seen here in a long time, possibly the best I have ever seen from you and it is spot on. I don't think Phoebus generally could throw as hard as those guys either, but then again, they are all HOFers' except Sudden Sam McDowell right? I only used Phoebus when he was espousing that only bigger modern day pitchers can throw hard and I totally disbelieve that. There may be more of them that throw hard but that can largely be attributed to how they are being used. None of them pitch complete games any more and are often removed via a pitch count by the 5th or sixth inning. That just didn't happen in the Phoebus era. I tried to point out that some smaller pitchers can throw hard and Phoebus came to mind. I also heard that Moe Drabowski had a blazing fast ball - and probably some 66 Dodgers would confirm that as he mowed down like 11 or so of them in relief. Then again, he didn't have to do it an entire game, so his performance was akin to today's average starter's innings (or maybe even more). Moe physically wasn't a big guy either but bigger than Tom for sure.

[weams]

This is one of the best posts I have seen here in a long time, possibly the best I have ever seen from you and it is spot on. I don't think Phoebus generally could throw as hard as those guys either, but then again, they are all HOFers' except Sudden Sam McDowell right? I only used Phoebus when he was espousing that only bigger modern day pitchers can throw hard and I totally disbelieve that. There may be more of them that throw hard but that can largely be attributed to how they are being used. None of them pitch complete games any more and are often removed via a pitch count by the 5th or sixth inning. That just didn't happen in the Phoebus era. I tried to point out that some smaller pitchers can throw hard and Phoebus came to mind. I also heard that Moe Drabowski had a blazing fast ball - and probably some 66 Dodgers would confirm that as he mowed down like 11 or so of them in relief. Then again, he didn't have to do it an entire game, so his performance was akin to today's average starter's innings (or maybe even more). Moe physically wasn't a big guy either but bigger than Tom for sure.

Thanks for the compliment. I occasionally use what is left of my brain.

[OFFNY]

I believe, based on watching Tom pitch and what I now know to be pretty good data, that he did not throw as hard as Jim Palmer. Or Sam McDowell, or Nolan Ryan. I don't think he threw as hard as Bob Gibson. I'd guess that Drungo is not too far from wrong. The point of making him an example was to refute Drungo's belief that today's pitchers throw harder. Not to guess the velocity of a smallish pitcher from our youth. I'd say that using Tom Phoebus to dispute the blog is probably a non starter. I am not saying that either of them are correct. I just believe the argument fails the sniff test for me. I do believe that all methods of testing velocity from the 50's and 60's is bad data.

Phoebus may not have thrown as fast as them. Or, he may have thrown almost as fast as them, which would still be notable.

He may have thrown in the low 90's, which is still hard for any pitcher (regardless of their stature) of that era.

I didn't say that he did or he didn't, and more importantly, if you look at the post progression, I was questioning Old Fan's assertions, not Drungo's original assertion (that pitchers today in general throw harder than in previous eras.) I thought that it was ridiculous that Old Fan pointed out Phoebus throwing a no-hitter as evidence (even circumstantial) that he threw as hard as he (Old Fan) was claiming. Drungo then asserted that he "would have heard about it" if someone of Phoebus' stature had thrown that hard. Well, to me, that is almost as specious as Old Fan pointing to Phoebus' no-hitter as evidence that he did throw that hard. It may be unusual for a person of that stature to throw in the 90's, but it's not unheard of, and it has happened. Phoebus may have only thrown 88 M.P.H., which would belie Old Fan's claims, but again, I don't think that it can be assumed one way or the other with certainty ...... which is what I believe what both posters were doing, without proof/evidence support it, other than what each was assuming.

[DrungoHazewood]

Drungo then asserted that he "would have heard about it" if someone of Phoebus' stature had thrown that hard. Well, to me, that is almost as specious as Old Fan pointing to Phoebus' no-hitter as evidence that he did throw that hard.

You don't think it's likely that someone would have said something if he threw that hard? That Neyer/James book was written by scouring countless old guides and magazines and scouting reports and the like, and all they found about Tom Phoebus' fastball was a quote that said it was "good", after it mentioned his curve.

I don't think it's on the level of Old#5 gossip to think someone, somewhere would have remarked that he had an excellent heater.