Buck would not commit to Ubaldo getting another start.

[weams]

It sounds to me (compete speculation on my part) that the Os have asked him to go down and maybe he has refused. Perhaps this is why you see Buck a little tougher on him word wise in his comments. Just my guess. I wouldn't be shocked to see Ubaldo go down now though, he seems like a class act.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He can't be sent down. Even with his permission. He would need to be DFA and then he could not refuse the assignment the first time. Future times, be could and still keep his contract. He would then need to be released.

[El Gordo]

He can't be sent down. Even with his permission. He would need to be DFA and then he could not refuse the assignment the first time. Future times, be could and still keep his contract. He would then need to be released.

This sounds pretty muddled to me. If he were DFA wouldn't he be exposed to other clubs? And wouldn't the O's be on the hook for his salary?

[Tx Oriole]

Eh, him calling Jimenez the team's 6th best starter IS the proper perspective.

Oh well. I like Jimenez. But team does come first.

[Tx Oriole]

Eh, him calling Jimenez the team's 6th best starter IS the proper perspective.

But did Buck say that?

[Il BuonO]

But did Buck say that?

First of all, I was responding to another poster. Secondly, Buck would never say something like that about one of his players. He'll make a decision about Jimenez soon enough, but most people are in agreement about who in the rotation deserves to be there.

And Jimenez doesn't pass muster.

[BradyBunch]

First of all, I was responding to another poster. Secondly, Buck would never say something like that about one of his players. He'll make a decision about Jimenez soon enough, but most people are in agreement about who in the rotation deserves to be there.

And Jimenez doesn't pass muster.

What you think and most people think doesn't matter. Buck wanted Ubaldo and PA gave him the money for Ubaldo. Ubaldo will be starting again this season.

[BradyBunch]

Problem is there is only 6 weeks left in the season - time to put your best foot forward. Unfortunately Ubaldo hasn't earned it at this point. Hopefully he'll get it right in the bullpen, be able to focus for shorter periods of time and throw strikes.

6 weeks in baseball is a long time. That's 8 starts for each pitcher. We have to consider what happens if one of our other starting pitchers go down with injury? Ubaldo is the ONLY starter that's serviceable if an injury happens. So you have to give him games to start.

[Il BuonO]

What you think and most people think doesn't matter. Buck wanted Ubaldo and PA gave him the money for Ubaldo. Ubaldo will be starting again this season.

Lighten up, Francis. Did I not preface that statement by saying Buck would make decision or was reading comprehension not your favorite subject?

[BradyBunch]

No, he outpitched him in April (5.19 to 6.59), as well as July (1.82 to 9.82) and August (4.09 to 7.84). Ubaldo only barely outpitched him in May, 3.12 to 3.34. If you want to combine July and August due to small sample size, Gonzalez also wins there, 2.43 (6 starts, 40.2 innings, 11 earned runs) to 8.36 (3 starts, 14 inning, 13 earned runs).

But we tossed out April in our equations earlier as the whole team pitched badly. So Ubaldo outpitched Gonzo in May and June at the time the O's started winning consistently. Imagine that..

Why would I want to combine Ubaldo's 1 start in July with his two August starts and compare them to Gonzo who pitched 3 more games then Ubaldo in that period? 27 IP is a lot to leave on the table especially with Ubaldo who has proven this year he can give you 3 games of 1 ER in 19.2 IPs (.47 ERA) or have one massive bad game and still pitch 17.2 innings and give up 7 ER for a 3.66 ERA over that 3 game period (which was his numbers for the last 3 games prior to Saturday's start).

Not really. His ERA the last two seasons has been 3.25 (15 starts) and 3.78 (28 starts), and his lifetime ERA is 3.64. His ERA this season is 3.80. (Those are his only seasons in the majors.) So he's pitching below his ability, if anything. Did you look at his stats before making that statement? Did you know that Ubaldo has a 3.99 lifetime ERA, below Gonzalez's 3.64, and that his ERA the last four years has been 4.82, 3.30, 4.68, and 5.40? Those aren't very good stats for three of those four years.

Gonzo's ERA each season has risen as he's gotten more starts.

Ubaldo's ERA for the last 4 seasons (that's 2010-2013 as 2014 isn't over)..

2010: 2.88

2011: 4.68

2012: 5.40

2013: 3.30

He was on pretty bad teams in 2011 and 2012 where lack of run support is the norm for him. He had two bad seasons since 2008 as any of us would take a sub 4 era pitcher and that's what Ubaldo is.

Ubaldo career wise is a damn good pitcher when he gets run support of 3-5 runs or more a game. He's career numbers are 82-33, 3.85 ERA (982 IP) (420 ER), 439 BB, 897Ks, WHIP is 1.3.

Key is for Ubaldo is to have run support something he's not getting this year. He's 4-2 when he gets 3-5 or more runs this year and he's pitching with a 3.84 ERA.

That's a massive difference. Gonzo gets run support. Ubaldo really hasn't this year. Ubaldo has pitched some great games giving up less the 3 ER and he still loses the game.

I'm not going to bother going over every point you wrote, such as the claim that "What makes you think he is 100% consistent for the next 5 starts? He's been up and down as much as Ubaldo has been." That's just wrong. (And I never said he'dd be "100% consistent for the next 5 starts," or anything close to that - when you have to put words in my mouth to make a point you should rethink your argument.) There's a reason why Ubaldo has a 4.82 ERA and Gonzalez a 3.80. You keep bringing up June, but that was one bad month, and is the primary reason why Gonzalez has an ERA of "only" 3.80. If you are going to cherry pick your stats, of course you can make anyone look good or bad. That's why it's best to look at overall stats as well as more recent trends. Gonzalez wins on both.

No, I am asking you what happens if Gonzo craps the bed? Trends in baseball are useless. If we go by trends O's lose 2 out 3 for the rest of the season and miss the playoffs.

And you keep ignoring the the problem that Ubaldo started slowly last year and this year, and is now essentially starting over - and who knows when or if he'll get it back together. Meanwhile, Gonzalez has a 2.43 ERA in July and August. How many times are you going to bring up June before you look at what he's DOING instead of his one really bad month? Remember, we're talking about a guy with a 3.64 lifetime ERA. Ubaldo's only pitched well once in the last four years. (Yes, he pitched great in 2010, when he had a 97 mph fastball, which he no longer has. A lot of pitchers pitched well in 2010 who aren't pitching well now.) Let's compare their ERA's side by side for the last four years:

2011: Ubaldo 4.68 (Gonzalez not in majors yet)

2012: Ubaldo 5.40, Gonzalez 3.25

2013: Ubaldo 3.30, Gonzalez 3.78

2014: Ubaldo 4.82, Gonzalez 3.80, 2.43 in July and August

Lifetime: Ubaldo 3.99, Gonzalez 3.64

We're in a pennant race. Who do you choose?

I choose the O's offense gives their pitchers 3-5 runs a game and not put pressure on their starters to have to throw a perfect game every time out just to have a chance to win. Ubaldo has had too many games where the O's have scored no runs for him yet he pitched a QS or close to it (8 in total or 40% of his games). Such as 5/13, 5/29, 6/3, 6/13, 6/20. That's 5 games Ubaldo gave up 3 or less ER that the O's lost 4 of 5 those despite him giving up 4 total ER in 30 IP.

That's 4 games O's lost in spite of Ubaldo pitching those games with a 1.20 ERA over those games. That's making the O's 74-48 up til now. So the issue still comes down to Offense. O's lost Friday's game because lack of run support for Chen. O's left 10 on base. So even pitching as damn well as Chen did doesn't mean anything if you can't score runs.

Personally, I'd rather lose 6-0 then 2-1 or 1-0 as it's on the pitcher. When we lose 2-1 or 1-0.. that's on 10 guys in the line up who didn't swing the bat.

[JayThomas]

What you think and most people think doesn't matter. Buck wanted Ubaldo and PA gave him the money for Ubaldo. Ubaldo will be starting again this season.

I have never heard that "Buck wanted Ubaldo and PA gave him the money for Ubaldo".

On a different note, it is truly remarkable that Ubaldo is walking people at the rate he is GIVEN the other stats in the other thread about how far down walk rates are this year overall - with 6 of the lowest 26 team walk rates since 1970 coming this year.

[larrytt]

But we tossed out April in our equations earlier as the whole team pitched badly. So Ubaldo outpitched Gonzo in May and June at the time the O's started winning consistently. Imagine that..

Why would I want to combine Ubaldo's 1 start in July with his two August starts and compare them to Gonzo who pitched 3 more games then Ubaldo in that period? 27 IP is a lot to leave on the table especially with Ubaldo who has proven this year he can give you 3 games of 1 ER in 19.2 IPs (.47 ERA) or have one massive bad game and still pitch 17.2 innings and give up 7 ER for a 3.66 ERA over that 3 game period (which was his numbers for the last 3 games prior to Saturday's start).

Gonzo's ERA each season has risen as he's gotten more starts.

Ubaldo's ERA for the last 4 seasons (that's 2010-2013 as 2014 isn't over)..

2010: 2.88

2011: 4.68

2012: 5.40

2013: 3.30

He was on pretty bad teams in 2011 and 2012 where lack of run support is the norm for him. He had two bad seasons since 2008 as any of us would take a sub 4 era pitcher and that's what Ubaldo is.

Ubaldo career wise is a damn good pitcher when he gets run support of 3-5 runs or more a game. He's career numbers are 82-33, 3.85 ERA (982 IP) (420 ER), 439 BB, 897Ks, WHIP is 1.3.

Key is for Ubaldo is to have run support something he's not getting this year. He's 4-2 when he gets 3-5 or more runs this year and he's pitching with a 3.84 ERA.

That's a massive difference. Gonzo gets run support. Ubaldo really hasn't this year. Ubaldo has pitched some great games giving up less the 3 ER and he still loses the game.

No, I am asking you what happens if Gonzo craps the bed? Trends in baseball are useless. If we go by trends O's lose 2 out 3 for the rest of the season and miss the playoffs.

I choose the O's offense gives their pitchers 3-5 runs a game and not put pressure on their starters to have to throw a perfect game every time out just to have a chance to win. Ubaldo has had too many games where the O's have scored no runs for him yet he pitched a QS or close to it (8 in total or 40% of his games). Such as 5/13, 5/29, 6/3, 6/13, 6/20. That's 5 games Ubaldo gave up 3 or less ER that the O's lost 4 of 5 those despite him giving up 4 total ER in 30 IP.

That's 4 games O's lost in spite of Ubaldo pitching those games with a 1.20 ERA over those games. That's making the O's 74-48 up til now. So the issue still comes down to Offense. O's lost Friday's game because lack of run support for Chen. O's left 10 on base. So even pitching as damn well as Chen did doesn't mean anything if you can't score runs.

Personally, I'd rather lose 6-0 then 2-1 or 1-0 as it's on the pitcher. When we lose 2-1 or 1-0.. that's on 10 guys in the line up who didn't swing the bat.

The amount of cherry-picking, irrelevant points, and illogic in this posting may set a new standard. Let's see, Ubaldo pitches poorly in April, so you want to throw that out. 2014 isn't over yet, so then you want to throw out all those stats as well. (So I guess we can throw out Chris Davis's 2014 season as well, and assume he's still a 53-HR, 1.004 guy, right?) Gonzalez's ERA has risen slightly over the last three years to the point where it's merely a full run per game better than Ubaldo (3.80 to 4.83), so that makes Ubaldo the better pitcher in your reasoning. Gonzalez has a 2.43 ERA over July and August so you don't want to talk about that. Ubaldo's had only one good half season in 2011, 2012, 2013, and 2014, but all you focus on is the second half of 2013 (13 starts) and ignore all the rest (102 starts). You blame Ubaldo's poor ERA on a lack of run support (!). You want to bring in Ubaldo's ERA from 2010 (back when he had a 97 MPH fastball he no longer has) to show how good he is in 2014. You make the case that Ubaldo outpitched Gonzalez in May, 3.34 to 3.12, and consider that equal to Gonzalez's out pitching him in all but one other months by huge margins. You ask what happens if Gonzalez "craps the bed" (when he's pitching great), while not asking what happens if Ubaldo continues to "crap the bed," since he is already doing so. You argue that Ubaldo giving up 6 runs and losing 6-0 is better than if a better pitcher pitches great but we lose 1-0 or 2-1 as a way to rationalize it being okay that Ubaldo gives up 6 runs in 4.1 innings. I've got one thing to say to all this - SERIOUSLY? But it's not worth getting into again - we've been over all this over and over, and the stats and reality simply do not back you up, as I and others have pointed out repeatedly. Even Jim Palmer, who is paid by the Orioles and has every incentive to praise Oriole pitchers and knows a zillion times more about pitching than either of us, disagrees with you. Believe what you want to believe.

[BMann]

And at some point you just have to give in to the Eyeball Test. My eyes tell me Ubaldo ain't gettin' it done, period. From what I read in this morning's Sun, Gonzo is coming back and Ubaldo is bullpen-bound, which tells me that Buck agrees:

"Orioles manager Buck Showalter said before the club's 4-1 win over the Cleveland Indians on Sunday that he hasn't told Jimenez whether he will remain in the rotation. But the handwriting appears to be on the wall, and with the way the starters align, it looks like Jimenez will, at the least, have his next turn skipped."

[foxfield]

This is great bar room discussion and this thread could just as easily be titled, how are the Orioles getting it done with out a true ace?

As Frobby pointed out having UJ as our #5 would not be the worst thing in the world. Also it is probably a good thing that we have 6 candidates to choose from. I think that Buck is going to try to give all of them work in order for each man to keep a foot in the door...until Buck decides to close it. Those of us at the bar might want to close that door today on UJ or MG or whoever. Buck is gonna make that call and he has proven that he is able to do this, at least in my opinion. I think he is going to make a call when he thinks he has to and I don't think he really cares about who wins AL Manager of the year.

Oh my how this team has changed...

For the better.

[Rene88]

Maybe a bullpen stint might actually help Ubaldo with his mechanics.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[larrytt]

While I think it's clear that Gonzalez should be in the rotation and Ubaldo out, that doesn't mean Ubaldo is a bad pitcher, though he'd not very good at the moment. He did pitch well in May and June. If we didn't have five other strong starters right now Ubaldo should be given another chance. But the problem is he's basically starting from scratch again after being on the disabled list for a month or so. Last year it took him 3.5 months to get going. This year it took him a month. And now he's had two starts and looks awful.

We can't afford the luxury of him blowing game after game in the hopes that he'll turn it around when we already have someone who IS pitching really well. Who wants to go to the guy who's pitching great and tell him he's being replaced by a guy who's pitching poorly with a much weaker history, in the hopes that he'll turn it around? Gonzalez already is pitching really well - 2.43 in July and August - so what more do we want? Gonzalez pitched much better in July/August than Ubaldo did in May/June, and July/August is now, while Ubaldo is no longer pitching like he did then.

Plus, as I pointed out, Ubaldo really hasn't been a very good pitcher much since 2010. For 2011-2014, his ERA is 4.52, which is much worse than Gonzalez's 3.64 lifetime (2012-2014). When I broke it down by pre- and post-all star game, he's done poorly in 7 of these 8 season halves since 2010, with fall 2013 his only strong performance. This year he's at 4.83. There were signs he was back in May/June, but now he's back to being the "bad" Ubaldo. Most of the time since 2010 he's been no more than a #5 pitcher - and on the Orioles right now, #6.