Hypothetical, Jones for McCutchen

[Malike]

It becomes more and more difficult to suspend disbelief the more lopsided the hypothetical trade becomes. When someone asks me "would you trade Markakis for McCutchen?" that's like asking if I'd trade my 2005 Mini for a new Audi R8. The answer has to be about the catch.

I'm still on the Jones for McCutchen trade, yes, you do have to suspend reality in this hypothetical, Jones is perceived as one of the best players in baseball by fans and media, even if the stats don't necessarily back it up. I love Jones, I'm a real big fan, but in this hypothetical I'd let him go. I'd even be inclined to think Adam would understand that if the O's were offered such a wacky deal, they'd be fools to pass it up.

[Old#5fan]

I would remember Andrew M. being an Oriole 25 years from now. Is Frank Robinson a true Oriole?

You won't remember Adam Jones? I remember guys like Russ Snyder, Willie Kirkland, Sam Bowens, Dick Brown, Johnny Orsino, Harvey Haddix, Jerry Adair, all Orioles from 1963, 1964 when I first became a fan. None of them nearly as memorable or as good a player as Adam Jones.... Who wants an Atlanta Brave anyway over the face of the organization?

[Malike]

You won't remember Adam Jones? I remember guys like Russ Snyder, Willie Kirkland, Sam Bowens, Dick Brown, Johnny Orsino, Harvey Haddix, Jerry Adair, all Orioles from 1963, 1964 when I first became a fan. None of them nearly as memorable or as good a player as Adam Jones.... Who wants an Atlanta Brave anyway over the face of the organization?

Read the post he quoted Old#5Fan.

[Redskins Rick]

Ask Frank. He will tell you. He didn't win the Triple Crown and WS as a Red. (although he did win an MVP).

He also didn't get along with some of his teammates causing the trade in the first place.

[Babypowder]

Ridiculous to even consider the Pirates would accept it obviously, but give me the better, younger, cheaper player every time.

[DrungoHazewood]

It's a hypothetical. The Pirates wouldn't trade MCCutchen for Jones. You're argument was that 3 wins wasn't enough because the message is that "people don't matter". However, you would trade Markakis for McCutchen. So, for you at some point, people don't matter too. Time to put on your crampons.

Yes, there is some sliding scale of insanity where I'd trade almost anyone. In video game world. Actually, in OOTP I will refuse a ridiculously lopsided trade with the AI because I think it's cheating. I won't take advantage of even a fake someone who is so stupid that you can't suspend disbelief.

Anyway, I'll concede the point that there's some line where you trade Cal and Eddie in 1983 for six Hall of Famers, four nymphomaniac supermodels and a stadium made out of gems and gold.

[DrungoHazewood]

So the argument about "people matter" is only up until the trade is ridiculously one sided? Then they don't matter. However, if you subjectively say the trade is only a slight win or even a solid win then people do matter.

Therefore, I find the argument of saying you can't do the trade because it sends the message that "people don't matter" not a very good one.

I think it's perfectly fine. It's much easier to tell Adam Jones and the fans we've traded him for all of crazy King Ludwig's riches in Bavaria, than it is to say they traded him for another good baseball player to theoretically eke out a few more wins.

It's only ridiculous when you throw everything that's vagely kind of the same into a big bucket and claim it's all exactly the same.

[MrOrange82]

So the argument about "people matter" is only up until the trade is ridiculously one sided? Then they don't matter. However, if you subjectively say the trade is only a slight win or even a solid win then people do matter.

Therefore, I find the argument of saying you can't do the trade because it sends the message that "people don't matter" not a very good one.

Think about the words you're using. "People matter." OK, what does that mean? How much do they matter? Does the phrase "people matter" imply an all-or-nothing absolute? Or does it suggest that AJ's value to the team as a person should be weighed against whatever potential talent benefits might be realized by trading him?

For my part, the idea of trading AJ turns my stomach slightly. At some point, a trade hypo could become so ridiculous that I'd have to take some Pepto and get over it. But such an offer isn't likely, and it isn't McCutchen in a one-for-one.

[PeteU]

You'd get a marginal increase in production, but it would be offset by effectively sticking a dagger through the heart of the clubhouse. Normally, I'd discount such an intangible, but AJ is the type of player that holds a club together.

Good thing this is only a hypothetical.

[PeteU]

"If the moon were made out of cheese, would you it eat? Well, would you?"

[OFFNY]

"If the moon were made out of cheese, would you it eat?

Well, would you?"

It depends on whether or not you believe that green cheese matters.

I mean, does green cheese REALLY matter ??? And if so, at what cost and/or at what price would you part with something that you have to attain it ??? What you trade your Oriole fandom for an unlimited supply of green cheese, considering that green cheese is worth about 10 wins per year, and also ........

[weams]

It's quite possible this is true. Then again, it could be completely false. We are guessing and assuming that the team would be rudderless without Jones and that the team would perform worse because of the fallout from a trade. It's just as possible that the team performs as well or better. McCutchen is the better player. He could make the difference in the playoffs between advancing or not advancing.

Would you trade Gordon for Trout if both were only signed through this year? I believe it is possible that Adam has the superior career.

[Camden_yardbird]

Being fans of both teams this is such an interesting question for me. I think both are the cornerstones of their teams. It seems almost alien to me to think of them reversed. Cutch has arguably better stats but they are so equally matched in intangibles that are so unique to their team and city.

I refuse to accept this hypothetical. It is the proverbial round square. This is not a thing.

[weams]

Who is Gordon?

Alex Gordon.

[DrungoHazewood]

Therefore, I find the argument of saying you can't do the trade because it sends the message that "people don't matter" not a very good one.

There comes a point when people weight how much Jones means to the team and community compared to what we are getting back.

I'm not sure how to reconcile those two statements. First you say that not making a trade because of people concerns is a bad idea. Then you say that it has to be a sliding scale where people concerns are considered. Aren't those in conflict?

Funny how a player's performance general affects how much people like that player. If Adam Jones is hitting .219 next June, let's see how many people would be saying we can't trade him because he means too much to the team.

Why is that funny? Isn't it obvious that players who are very good and good people are much more liked and valued than those who aren't? Jones is a good guy who's a good player. It would be more difficult to trade him than someone who is a good guy and hits .198. Or someone who is Delmon Young.