Hypothetical, Jones for McCutchen

[atomic]

Hell no. What's with some fans? O's in first AJ is a great player. Sorry.

To me this is like trading a 27 year old Ray Lewis for a younger better player. I think this thread is an insult to Adam Jones. I hope he has enough sense to not read this board. It makes me really wonder how people act in real life.

[tettleton14]

His career stolen base numbers.are.horrible. .certainly not.better than Jones. Jones.has more.power.and has more.rbis and runs the past two seasons. The National.League is super.weak. He would not.have those numbers with the Os. Why do you think.all free.agent pitchers want to go to the Natonal league so.badly?

I love AJ. But the reason is not because pitchers are frothing at the mouth to face McCutchen.

They do, however, like pitching against pitchers instead of DHs

[tettleton14]

In general though I do agree with your point, atomic. Jones has been so good for our franchise and is playing outstanding baseball on a WS contending team. Talking about trading him, even hypothetically, strikes me as "ungrateful."

[atomic]

The whole reason to have value constructs like WAR are to approach questions like that in a disciplined, structured, consistent way and to come up with defensible answers.

But judging on WAR alone could be just add bad as judging on batting average alone. People taking some number as the end all for stats without critical questions to its value I'd what gets me. I totally question that fref for.pitchers.has.any usefulness at all. And defensive.WAR for.outfielders seems very suspect as.well. I see.significant variations year to year for a.lot.of.guys which makes me think out is just a random number.

[atomic]

I love AJ. But the reason is not because pitchers are frothing at the mouth to face McCutchen.

They do, however, like pitching against pitchers instead of DHs

The pitching is weaker in the NL. I see guys like Pujlos and Fielder come over and their. stats.drop. The AL east pitching had been pretty incredible during Jones tenure with the club. Well excluding the Orioles until recently.

[DrungoHazewood]

But judging on WAR alone could be just add bad as judging on batting average alone. People taking some number as the end all for stats without critical questions to its value I'd what gets me. I totally question that fref for.pitchers.has.any usefulness at all. And defensive.WAR for.outfielders seems very suspect as.well. I see.significant variations year to year for a.lot.of.guys which makes me think out is just a random number.

I don't even know how to begin to address that. The first sentence is either willfully exaggerating, or shows a total lack of knowledge on the subject.

[atomic]

I don't even know how to begin to address that. The first sentence is either willfully exaggerating, or shows a total lack of knowledge on the subject.

Actually I had a lot of courses in statistics and scientific studies in college. Trained to be cynical...Where everyone here seems to take.WAR as being absolutely accurate measure which of course it isn't. And some measurements of WAR seem totally ridiculous like FWAR for pitching. Yet people on here actually believe it like I said before if it was valid why don't they judge batters the same way? It is comical that people actually believe that one.

[atomic]

I deleted the well reasoned part of your post. No one can guaranteed a WS title with Markakis or even with McCutchen. The question is, who would you rather have on your team going forward. Anyone that picks Markakis over McCutchen needs a check up from the neck up.

Or maybe they just are loyal to the players. I mean it is easy to become a fan of a new team of you like their players so much. Get an MLB TV subscription and order some gear.

[Crazysilver03]

His career stolen base numbers.are.horrible. .certainly not.better than Jones. Jones.has more.power.and has more.rbis and runs the past two seasons. The National.League is super.weak. He would not.have those numbers with the Os. Why do you think.all free.agent pitchers want to go to the Natonal league so.badly?

What is your definition of power, because McCutchen, by the numbers, has more power than Jones, with the higher ISO and SLG%.

And RBIs/Runs are not statistics that McCutchen has a lot of control over, whereas the numbers brought up by Malike are completely player based numbers.

If you want to believe that the NL is "super weak," go ahead, but the numbers between Jones/McCutchen suggest you are wrong.

[atomic]

What is your definition of power, because McCutchen, by the numbers, has more power than Jones, with the higher ISO and SLG%.

And RBIs/Runs are not statistics that McCutchen has a lot of control over, whereas the numbers brought up by Malike are completely player based numbers.

If you want to believe that the NL is "super weak," go ahead, but the numbers between Jones/McCutchen suggest you are wrong.

Jones has had more home runs the last two seasons, Career wise his slugging percentagr is 30 points less but his average is 17 points less so most of the lower slugging percentage is singles. Jones also has a lower rate of triples. That might be due to base running or park factors but I doubt it is due to power yetit increases slugging percentage. Overall if you consider league differences it is just OBP where Jones falls behind, with the increas in home runs probablu responsible.the increased RBIs for Jones.

[CanadianOriole]

The pitching is weaker in the NL. I see guys like Pujlos and Fielder come over and their. stats.drop. The AL east pitching had been pretty incredible during Jones tenure with the club. Well excluding the Orioles until recently.

McCutchen is hitting 326/.412/.499 in interleague play in 91 games vs the AL. .500/.578/1.217 in 10 games against the Orioles.

Adam Jones is a very nice player - an all star many years. Andrew McCutchen is the reigning MVP and without hyperbole is going to have a shot at the Hall of Fame. Are there a million and one things that could happen to prevent McCutchen from reaching the Hall? Of course - it's a projection requiring many more peak years and good health. However, that's the arc he is on.

[weams]

What is your definition of power, because McCutchen, by the numbers, has more power than Jones, with the higher ISO and SLG%.

And RBIs/Runs are not statistics that McCutchen has a lot of control over, whereas the numbers brought up by Malike are completely player based numbers.

If you want to believe that the NL is "super weak," go ahead, but the numbers between Jones/McCutchen suggest you are wrong.

Jones is a more powerful man. McCutchen is a smaller man. He does not hit the ball as far or create as much bat speed.

[DrungoHazewood]

Actually I had a lot of courses in statistics and scientific studies in college. Trained to be cynical...Where everyone here seems to take.WAR as being absolutely accurate measure which of course it isn't. And some measurements of WAR seem totally ridiculous like FWAR for pitching. Yet people on here actually believe it like I said before if it was valid why don't they judge batters the same way? It is comical that people actually believe that one.

Since you obviously have some very strongly held opinions on the relative merits of different players, it would be interesting to know how you come to those conclusions. What tools or frameworks do you use? How do those differ from the various published versions of WAR?

Why field of study did you take part in that trained you to be cynical? Do you mean the "concerned only with one's own interests and typically disregarding accepted or appropriate standards in order to achieve them" definition of cynical?

[DrungoHazewood]

Jones is a more powerful man. McCutchen is a smaller man. He does not hit the ball as far or create as much bat speed.

An average Jones homer this year has traveled 399.5 feet. An average McCutchen homer has traveled 397.5. That difference would appear to be small.

[PA724_Oriole]

And RBIs/Runs are not statistics that McCutchen has a lot of control over, whereas the numbers brought up by Malike are completely player based numbers.

I would disagree with this. Ortiz is playing on by far a worse offensve team than McCutch and is still piling up the RBIs with a lower average and as many HRs as Cutch is capable of.

Its all about timely hitting. Better believe he gets the oppurtunities. Maybe he just isnt as Clutch as some may think.

Maybe is average isnt as great as it appears to be.