Thirty years on...

[TonySoprano]

Silly Hoffberger, he should've been an extortionist like EBW was. Put it all on the taxpayer's dime, it was a very cost-effective move.

Oriole Park was built with Maryland State Lottery money.

As for the attendance, please tell me what EBW did that was so brilliant. I don't know because I wasn't there. All I know is what friends and family told me, and what they said was the Irsay ruined the Colts and then stole them, and every rotten thing he did helped people switch allegience from the Colts to the Orioles. In the end, the Orioles

As everyone in the area is painfully aware, the Colts left in the middle of the night in March 1984.

Attendance

1977 - 1,195,769

1978 - 1,051,724

1979 - 1,681,009

1980 - 1,797,438

1981 - 1,024, 247 (Strike shortened, 105 game split season)

1982 - 1,613,031

1983 - 2,042,071 (Colts still here)

1984 - 2,045,784

1985 - 2,132,387

Then again, I suppose your family and friends also know better than Frank Cashen.

[RShack]

I've consistently said it was Peters' fault. Hoffberger had him for five years, Williams for seven, both made a mistake.

You're happy to slam owners as long as it's PA. But when it comes to previous owners, they're not responsible? It's just the guys who work for them? Unless the owner is PA, they've got teflon and aren't responsible for what happens on their watch? It's all their employees' fault? OK, I see...

So, that leaves just 2 questions:

Except for using extortion to get a new stadium, what did EBW do that was good?

And if it wasn't about the Colts, exactly how did EBW turn a football-town into a baseball-town?

[66-70-83-??]

You're happy to slam owners as long as it's PA. But when it comes to previous owners, they're not responsible? It's just the guys who work for them? Unless the owner is PA, they've got teflon and aren't responsible for what happens on their watch? It's all their employees' fault? OK, I see...

So, that leaves just 2 questions:

Except for using extortion to get a new stadium, what did EBW do that was good?

And if it wasn't about the Colts, exactly how did EBW turn a football-town into a baseball-town?

Extortion ?

What is with the irrational hatred for EBW?

In Eisenbergs book on the O's Frank Cashen, Joe Hamper and Larry Lucchino all give credit to EBW for the attendence increase (courting the DC crowd- bringing Supreme Court Justices, Politicians, etc.. and the subsequent publicity), getting OPACY built, and ultimately keeping the team in Baltimore.

[TonySoprano]

Have you not read anything I have written up to this point? Seriously.

You're happy to slam owners as long as it's PA. But when it comes to previous owners, they're not responsible?

Answer: Here and here , and for the third time here

And if it wasn't about the Colts, exactly how did EBW turn a football-town into a baseball-town?

Answer : here

Honestly, my reason to debate with someone whose hardened preconceived notion is that Williams should be burning in hell is that it may have been more of an academic exercise for the rest of the board, because I'm convinced no counter-argument could sway you.

[66-70-83-??]

Oriole Park was built with Maryland State Lottery money.

As everyone in the area is painfully aware, the Colts left in the middle of the night in March 1984.

Attendance

1977 - 1,195,769

1978 - 1,051,724

1979 - 1,681,009

1980 - 1,797,438

1981 - 1,024, 247 (Strike shortened, 105 game split season)

1982 - 1,613,031

1983 - 2,042,071 (Colts still here)

1984 - 2,045,784

1985 - 2,132,387

Then again, I suppose your family and friends also know better than Frank Cashen.

Not only was OPACY and M&T Stadium built with Lottery Money- but dedicated scratch-off instant Lottery tickets. The tickets were clearly marked as to what the funds were supporting.

So, if you were against funding the stadium you simply did not purchase one of the scratch-off games that were dedicated to the stadium.

[SteveA]

Not only was OPACY and M&T Stadium built with Lottery Money- but dedicated scratch-off instant Lottery tickets. The tickets were clearly marked as to what the funds were supporting.

So, if you were against funding the stadium you simply did not purchase one of the scratch-off games that were dedicated to the stadium.

Weren't there also some bonds issued for it?

[BaltimoreTerp]

Weren't there also some bonds issued for it?

That's what the lottery paid for.

[BaltimoreTerp]

http://www.amazon.com/Ballpark-Camden-Yards-Building-American/dp/0684800489/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203657689&sr=8-1

Highly-recommended reading.

[RShack]

Honestly, my reason to debate with someone whose hardened preconceived notion is that Williams should be burning in hell is that it may have been more of an academic exercise for the rest of the board, because I'm convinced no counter-argument could sway you.

Are you really telling me that the main reason O's attendance went up is not because of passion shifting from the Colts to the O's, but instead is because EBW got Supreme Court guys and Congressman to come up from DC? Like I said, I wasn't there and I only know what friends and family told me... and AFAIK, the upswing in O's attendance pretty much tracks the deterioration of the Colts under Irsay... I was going on what people in Baltimore told me...

Now, I knew that more people came from DC after the Senators left... and that cranked up a lot when OPACY opened... but this is the very first time I've heard somebody ignore the Colts-factor and instead credit it to Supreme Court justices and Congressmen leading the charge...

Just curious, is that what most folks believe? That it wasn't about a football-town becoming a baseball-town, but instead was Congressmen and Justices somehow making it OK for DC folks to come to O's games? Is that really what happened? Because if it is, I've got friends and family who I need to correct about this...

[RShack]

As everyone in the area is painfully aware, the Colts left in the middle of the night in March 1984.

Attendance

1977 - 1,195,769

1978 - 1,051,724

1979 - 1,681,009

1980 - 1,797,438

1981 - 1,024, 247 (Strike shortened, 105 game split season)

1982 - 1,613,031

1983 - 2,042,071 (Colts still here)

1984 - 2,045,784

1985 - 2,132,387

Then again, I suppose your family and friends also know better than Frank Cashen.

Oh good grief... I never said it happened all-the-sudden when the Colts left. I said that everybody I know told me that it tracked the deterioration of the Colts under Irsay, which was a very multiple-year process. When they moved, that was just the last straw, it wasn't the *beginning* of it, that was just the *end* of it.

What do those attendance figures show you? They show me that attendance for GOOD teams was about the same from 79 thru 82. Obviously, EBW had nothing to do with attendance in '79, and it stayed about the same until '83. So, you think that EBW did some magic trick that all-the-sudden changed attendance in '83? Is that what you think?

That baseball season followed the ONLY SEASON EVER that the Baltimore Colts failed to win even 1 measly game! The Colts finished dead last in offense (28th out of 28 teams) and 26th out of 28 on defense! You don't think everybody was disgusted with what Irsay had done to the Colts after that? You think everybody hates PA, well that's nothing compared to what everybody thought of Irsay by then. Plus, a strike cut that NFL season about in half. You don't think people preferred to go watch the O's win the pennant instead? Colts' attendance went in the crapper and O's attendance went way up. You think these things are just unrelated coincidences, and O's attendance suddenly went way up from one season to the next because EBW brought some Supreme Court Justices to O's games?

Why would you think that? Because you found a quote from Frank Cashen? Do you think this is even logical?

[66-70-83-??]

Are you really telling me that the main reason O's attendance went up is not because of passion shifting from the Colts to the O's, but instead is because EBW got Supreme Court guys and Congressman to come up from DC? Like I said, I wasn't there and I only know what friends and family told me... and AFAIK, the upswing in O's attendance pretty much tracks the deterioration of the Colts under Irsay... I was going on what people in Baltimore told me...

Now, I knew that more people came from DC after the Senators left... and that cranked up a lot when OPACY opened... but this is the very first time I've heard somebody ignore the Colts-factor and instead credit it to Supreme Court justices and Congressmen leading the charge...

Just curious, is that what most folks believe? That it wasn't about a football-town becoming a baseball-town, but instead was Congressmen and Justices somehow making it OK for DC folks to come to O's games? Is that really what happened? Because if it is, I've got friends and family who I need to correct about this...

EBW was the first Oriole owner to successfully market to the former Senator fanbase in DC.

EBW,getting publicity for bringing high profile friends (Supreme Court Judges, Congressmen, etc) certainly helped those marketing efforts.

I imagine that they (Orioles Execs in PR and Marketing) knew who and where their fans where coming from.

Sure, there were probably some Colt fans who gave the Orioles the time of day as Irsay was running the Colts into the ground. BUt, the throngs of Wash DC area fans must have made a big difference or else Hamper and Cashen wouldn't have gone out of their way to credit EBW.

*Hamper says that Hoffberger actually did try to court Washington fans but failed.

*- source: Eisenbergs book

[TonySoprano]

EBW,getting publicity for bringing high profile friends (Supreme Court Judges, Congressmen, etc) certainly helped those marketing efforts.

That's the key. Having lived in that area, I can tell you after the Senators left, there wasn't much Orioles news in the papers, only Redskins, and then Bullets and Capitals. Williams changed that. It certainly didn't hurt either that one of Williams' closest friends was Ben Bradlee, executive editor for the Washington Post newspaper.

[66-70-83-??]

Oh good grief... I never said it happened all-the-sudden when the Colts left. I said that everybody I know told me that it tracked the deterioration of the Colts under Irsay, which was a very multiple-year process. When they moved, that was just the last straw, it wasn't the *beginning* of it, that was just the *end* of it.

What do those attendance figures show you? They show me that attendance for GOOD teams was about the same from 79 thru 82. Obviously, EBW had nothing to do with attendance in '79, and it stayed about the same until '83. So, you think that EBW did some magic trick that all-the-sudden changed attendance in '83? Is that what you think?

That baseball season followed the ONLY SEASON EVER that the Baltimore Colts failed to win even 1 measly game! The Colts finished dead last in offense (28th out of 28 teams) and 26th out of 28 on defense! You don't think everybody was disgusted with what Irsay had done to the Colts after that? You think everybody hates PA, well that's nothing compared to what everybody thought of Irsay by then. Plus, a strike cut that NFL season about in half. You don't think people preferred to go watch the O's win the pennant instead? Colts' attendance went in the crapper and O's attendance went way up. You think these things are just unrelated coincidences, and O's attendance suddenly went way up from one season to the next because EBW brought some Supreme Court Justices to O's games?

Why would you think that? Because you found a quote from Frank Cashen? Do you think this is even logical?

Yes.

I can't speak for TonySoprano, but I have found quotes supporting what EBW did to raise attendance and other postive things for the Orioles.

Not just from Frank Cashen, but also Larry Lucchino and Joe Hamper (who worked for the Orioles from 1954 to 1991, starting in accounting and working his way to CFO).

The quotes are in the book 33rd St to Camden Yards. It was written in 2001. The interviews were conducted in the year or so prior. EBW died many years earlier. Why would these guys credit EBW if they didn't have good reasons?

Why should we discredit these guys with inside knowledge?

[RShack]

Sure, there were probably some Colt fans who gave the Orioles the time of day as Irsay was running the Colts into the ground. BUt, the throngs of Wash DC area fans must have made a big difference or else Hamper and Cashen wouldn't have gone out of their way to credit EBW.

And that all-the-sudden happend in '83, like somebody flipped a switch? It wasn't because the Colts were the WORST TEAM in the NFL the year before and didn't win even 1 single game. It was because EBW flipped a switch and made a huge diff in one year, is that what you're telling me?

[RShack]

Yes.

I can't speak for TonySoprano, but I have found quotes supporting what EBW did to raise attendance and other postive things for the Orioles.

Not just from Frank Cashen, but also Larry Lucchino and Joe Hamper (who worked for the Orioles from 1954 to 1991, starting in accounting and working his way to CFO).

The quotes are in the book 33rd St to Camden Yards. It was written in 2001. The interviews were conducted in the year or so prior. Why would these guys credit EBW if they didn't have good reasons?

Why should we discredit these guys with inside knowledge?

OK, so please explain to me how attendance was constant from Hoffberger's last year through '82, and then all-the-sudden it zoomed way up in '83. Explain that. How did EBW suddenly flip a switch and do that? There was virtually zero change in attendance for his first 3 years, and then he created a huge upswing all-the-sudden in '83. How did he do that? And why did he wait 3 years before he flipped that switch?

You're telling me that he did it all-the-sudden after 3 years, and it was just a *coincidence* that it happened immediately after the Colts failed to win even a single game and were the worst team in the NFL. Right. So, if that's a coincidence, then just explain how EBW flipped the switch. I just want an explanation that's not loony, that's all.