Machado IS our Jeter... Our HanRam... Our... "New Cal Ripken"... Right?

[Bradysburns]

What does HanRam have to do with Ripken or Jeter? One of these three is not the same.

Manny hasn't established himself as a team leader. Maybe he will in a few years. Maybe he will still be an Oriole. Too soon to answer the question.

That's a fair point. I don't actually think HanRam quite deserves to be on that list of all-time greats. But had he stayed with Boston his whole career, would we think differently about him? Probably, because he has had a stellar career.

[DrungoHazewood]

That's a fair point. I don't actually think HanRam quite deserves to be on that list of all-time greats. But had he stayed with Boston his whole career, would we think differently about him? Probably, because he has had a stellar career.

All time rWAR through age 32:

Ripken 76.7, 21st

Jeter 53.9, 81st

Ramirez 37.8, approximately 225th

[LordOfTheHodors]

Manny is a phenom, no doubt about it. As a fan though, it takes more than raw talent to make me like a player. My personal experience with Manny has led to me not being a huge fan of his.

My wife and I went to the Domincan on vacation a few years ago and just happened to be at the same resort that David Ortiz had reserved for his golf outing, while it was going on. The property tried to send us to their sister resort, which we obviously refused - how awesome that we would get to be there around all of these athletes and celebrities! Adam and Manny were the only players there that we saw from the Orioles. While there, I saw Manny hanging out with ARod quite a bit - that sorta bugged me. Side note: ARod had a security guard with him at all times. I thought that was pretty funny - no one else there seemed to have one. My wife and I joked about shoving him into the pool during the evening cocktail events. I think that Manny idolizes ARod - I didn't see any other players hanging out with him as much as Manny was.

My point is that I fully expect to see Manny in pinstripes. I'm not getting attached to him as a fan.

[pastorfan]

Would you agree with that statement? Why or why not?

Hanram...no. But I'd say Manny is a better player than all of those guys, but his baseball IQ does not appear to match Jeter's or Cal's, as his base running has proven.

[PaulFolk]

Manny is a phenom, no doubt about it. As a fan though, it takes more than raw talent to make me like a player. My personal experience with Manny has led to me not being a huge fan of his.

My wife and I went to the Domincan on vacation a few years ago and just happened to be at the same resort that David Ortiz had reserved for his golf outing, while it was going on. The property tried to send us to their sister resort, which we obviously refused - how awesome that we would get to be there around all of these athletes and celebrities! Adam and Manny were the only players there that we saw from the Orioles. While there, I saw Manny hanging out with ARod quite a bit - that sorta bugged me. Side note: ARod had a security guard with him at all times. I thought that was pretty funny - no one else there seemed to have one. My wife and I joked about shoving him into the pool during the evening cocktail events. I think that Manny idolizes ARod - I didn't see any other players hanging out with him as much as Manny was.

My point is that I fully expect to see Manny in pinstripes. I'm not getting attached to him as a fan.

I thought that story was going to be much worse, like Manny personally mistreated you or something.

His big crime is hanging out with A-Rod? Who cares? It's well established that A-Rod is his friend and was his idol growing up, and he's said so numerous times. I don't think that has anything to do with whether he'll stay with the Orioles.

[waroriole]

I thought that story was going to be much worse, like Manny personally mistreated you or something.

His big crime is hanging out with A-Rod? Who cares? It's well established that A-Rod is his friend and was his idol growing up, and he's said so numerous times. I don't think that has anything to do with whether he'll stay with the Orioles.

Seriously. How dare he be friends with an all time great from the same area as himself.

[El Gordo]

Would you agree with that statement? Why or why not?

Meh. I'm pissed at him for trying to hit 40 HR rather than help his club win with QAB of which he is certainly capable.

[Bradysburns]

All time rWAR through age 32:

Ripken 76.7, 21st

Jeter 53.9, 81st

Ramirez 37.8, approximately 225th

I'm not too familiar with rWAR, but I tried to do some research. Is it similar to oWAR? Regardless, I'm kind of stunned at the difference here, although how much of that production is due to longevity and games played? Because HanRam probably has a good 7-8 years of production left.

[baltfan]

Like Jeter, I do think Manny has a bit of an issue going to his left. If you think of all of the great plays he has made, how many have involved going to his left? Also, I am not convinced that he is that quick. There have been a fair amount of hard hit balls that I thought Manny might be able to get to on a dive only to see them pass him.

Still a tremendous player (top 5 in MLB all things considered) that I would love to have around for years to come.

[El Gordo]

All time rWAR through age 32:

Ripken 76.7, 21st

Jeter 53.9, 81st

Ramirez 37.8, approximately 225th

Cal Through age 23: 22.2 rWAR, Manny: 24.4.

[Bradysburns]

I thought that story was going to be much worse, like Manny personally mistreated you or something.

His big crime is hanging out with A-Rod? Who cares? It's well established that A-Rod is his friend and was his idol growing up, and he's said so numerous times. I don't think that has anything to do with whether he'll stay with the Orioles.

Agreed - given the truly (IMO) embarrassing way ARod's career ended in New York, it might make Manny less inclined to go there! I mean, they all but humiliated ARod the way they handled that.

I'm starting to think that the answer to this question cannot really come until after he has resigned with the Orioles... But I'm wondering if that can even happen now.

I read somewhere that he could get a $400 million deal. I think that's a bit much, but if you calculate in inflation, etc., it might be justifiable.

You can see where Manny's headed - he has gotten better offensively every year, and he's... 24. To me, if they could sign him this offseason to a 10/300 deal, that would be incredible. He's be ridiculously rich, and we'd have him through his age 35 season. Heck, he could even sign another contract after that!

[spiritof66]

Agreed.

Plus Jeter, Gwynn and Ripken were perfect role models. Manny is a punk.

I'm ambivalent about Manny's personality. I really appreciate and enjoy his play, but his nonchalence in the field, overswinging at the plate, and recklessness on the bases sometimes drives me crazy. He's like most players in that I really don't know what kind of person he is, even though I sometimes think I do. I don't use the term "role model" in connection with athletes -- except maybe negatively, when a player's conduct makes it obvious that he's got personal qualities that shouldn't be emulated.

But if you're comparing Manny to Jeter, here's one one thing I do know. Manny came up as a SS. When the team had a SS but badly needed someone at 3B, he learned that position -- and handled it pretty well, I'd say. When Hardy went down this year, Manny played a good SS. He did make some bad plays and some errors. If he ever said, "I would have made that play (or wouldn't have made that error) if I'd been playing SS the last few years," I missed that.

When the NYY acquired A-Rod in 2004, who at the time had won the last two GGs at SS and was a far better defensive SS than Jeter (except maybe in the minds of Jeter and some loyal NYY fans), Jeter pretty much preempted the discussion and decision about resolving that surplus by saying, in effect, "I'm the Yankee SS. That's the spot I've wanted since I was a kid. It's mine, and I'm not giving it up. I'm not going to learn a new position. He'll have to do that."

If Jeter had the qualities of a"perfect role model," IMO he would have learned to play 1B, 2B and/or the outfield, or at least offered to do that. He almost certainly would have helped the team defensively by doing that. Instead, he in effect compelled the NYY to put up with his mediocre and, later, bad defense. I guess I should thank him for that. It's maybe coincidence, but while Jeter stayed put the NYY never developed, traded for, or signed a good SS. There would be place to put him until Jeter retired, and that became a problem when Jeter got injured.

[DrungoHazewood]

I'm not too familiar with rWAR, but I tried to do some research. Is it similar to oWAR? Regardless, I'm kind of stunned at the difference here, although how much of that production is due to longevity and games played? Because HanRam probably has a good 7-8 years of production left.

It's the bb-ref formulation. fWAR is Fangraphs' version. The main differences with Ripken are:

- Ramirez' best years came when offense was still up

- The last five years he's been hurt and/or not all that good

- He's a well below average SS while Cal was epic

If Ramirez has 7-8 good years left, which I think is very optimistic, it will be at 1B/DH where the offensive bar is much higher. He has almost no chance to catch either Jeter or Ripken. And it'll be an upset if he reaches the HOF gray area in the mid-to-high 50s.

[O's84]

Machado IS our Jeter... Our HanRam... Our... "New Cal Ripken"... Right?

Only if he says Adrian Beltre is the best defensive 3B of all time.

[Objectivity]

Machado is one of the top players in the game. Who wouldn't want him signed long term to their club? The odds of finding one person who can replace what he's capable of are incredibly long.

That being said, there's one knock about Manny that I can't get out of my mind, and I know I'm being unfair in saying this. A few years ago, Manny got hurt and was given the option of taking time off and healing and getting back in time for the playoffs or having season ending surgery. He chose the surgery and wrote off the rest of the season. To me, if you have that option, you try to recover and rehab knowing if it doesn't work surgery is still an option and you'd still be ready for the next season. There didn't seem to be a need to end the season at that point, but there didn't seem to be any hesitation or frustration about making that decision. That makes me question his commitment somewhat. And, like I said, I know that's not a fair thing to say because I don't know all the variables. All I know is what I saw and the impression it made.