What made Jim Palmer such a great pitcher?

[TINSTAAPP]

He was before my time so the only way I can evaluate him at all is by his numbers. Looking at his stats, it's striking how similar Palmer is statistically to Tom Glavine. Their strikeout, walk and HR rate is virtually identical. Both pitchers also routinely out-performed their FIP by a considerable margin. Would it be accurate to describe Palmer as a Glavine-like pitcher who didn't have the most overpowering stuff but was an extremely smart and crafty pitcher who knew how to pitch out of trouble and induce weak contact?

Another thing I noticed is that a lot of sabermetrician types say Palmer might be a little overrated and that he benefited tremendously from a historically great defense behind him with the likes of Belanger, Brooks, Grich and Blair behind him. But by 1977, Brooks, Grich and Blair were all gone yet Palmer still finished top 5 in the American League in ERA and third in fewest hits allowed/9 IP. In 1978, he finished 4th in the AL in ERA and 4th in fewest hits allowed/9 IP. It seemed like his numbers weren't affected at all even after the great defensive players behind him were gone. That tells me Palmer might have just been really good at pitching to where the defense was playing the hitters more than being the beneficiary of a great defense behind him who gobbled everything up.

[brianod]

Jim is overrated as a pitcher and underrated as a broadcaster:) Seriously though, when comparing all time greats, you need to take into account the era in which they played. Much of Palmers career was played in an era dominated by pitchers and in a park that was pitcher friendly. He suffers in comparison to all time greats similar to Koufax who also pitched in a pitchers park in a pitchers era.

[Moose Milligan]

Jim is overrated as a pitcher and underrated as a broadcaster:) Seriously though, when comparing all time greats, you need to take into account the era in which they played. Much of Palmers career was played in an era dominated by pitchers and in a park that was pitcher friendly. He suffers in comparison to all time greats similar to Koufax who also pitched in a pitchers park in a pitchers era.

I would say he probably benefitted more from a tremendous defense than anything. I think he's admitted as much himself.

[25 Nuggets]

The first thing Jim tells you about the secret to his success was "fastball command". He says he learned that lesson from fellow HOFer Robin Roberts when he was just starting out.

[mdbdotcom]

The first thing Jim tells you about the secret to his success was "fastball command". He says he learned that lesson from fellow HOFer Robin Roberts when he was just starting out.

When he retired, at the ceremony honoring him at Memorial Stadium, Rick Dempsey told a story about a game in which Palmer was unhappy with his curveball. He threw two curveballs in the first inning and then nothing but fastballs in the rest of a complete game victory.

Palmer says his fastball was 95+ when he first came up, but below that after his rotator cuff problems in '67-'68. When he pitched, the average fastball was in the upper 80s, so his low-90s fastball was better than most. And the American League strike zone (yes, they were a little different in each league) was higher than it has been in most of the last 20 years. He was a master of the high fastball. This sometimes gave him problems in All Star and World Series appearances if a National League umpire was behind the plate.

He was never a "crafty" or junk ball pitcher. He won and lost with the fastball.

[Frobby]

The first thing Jim tells you about the secret to his success was "fastball command". He says he learned that lesson from fellow HOFer Robin Roberts when he was just starting out.

Palmer had four plus pitches that he could throw for strikes anywhere in the count. Batters never knew what was coming. The top of the strike zone was higher then and he was very good at getting hitters to chase fastballs at the top of the zone. Couple that with a 12-6 curve and it was a devastating combination. His pitching motion was beautifully rhythmic, almost hypnotic. Still the prettiest, most effortless seeming motion I've ever seen.

You know, I appreciate the Orioles' great defense as much as anyone, but having watched Palmer's entire career, I have a very hard time believing he wouldn't have been a Hall of Famer if he'd pitched for some average team.

[scOtt]

96? Devastating curve? High leg kick and all arms and legs?

[scOtt]

When he retired, at the ceremony honoring him at Memorial Stadium, Rick Dempsey told a story about a game in which Palmer was unhappy with his curveball. He threw two curveballs in the first inning and then nothing but fastballs in the rest of a complete game victory.

Palmer says his fastball was 95+ when he first came up, but below that after his rotator cuff problems in '67-'68. When he pitched, the average fastball was in the upper 80s, so his low-90s fastball was better than most. And the American League strike zone (yes, they were a little different in each league) was higher than it has been in most of the last 20 years. He was a master of the high fastball. This sometimes gave him problems in All Star and World Series appearances if a National League umpire was behind the plate.

He was never a "crafty" or junk ball pitcher. He won and lost with the fastball.

This helped too. If you look at old footage he (and everyone else) got high strike calls that hitters today would willingly get tossed arguing. Letter high.

[thezeroes]

Adding 6 teams during his pitching tenure diluted the "Talent Pool" and opposing pitching staffs. Seldom does this get taking into consideration.

1965 American League has an OPS of .680

1975 American League had an OPS of .707

1982 American League had an OPS of .730

The lowering of the mound in 1969 was intended to "increase the batting" once again, as pitching had become increasingly dominant, reaching its peak the prior year; 1968 is known among baseball historians as "The Year of the Pitcher".

[InsideCoroner]

Palmer is 35th in all-time career WAR among all MLB pitchers, sitting at just over 68. I don't think that's overrated. That's legendary.

[BarclaySouthway]

Palmer had an easy motion after he came out of his high leg kick and his fastball got up on the hitter faster than expected. His fastball had hop.

Back in those days he'd get a lot of letter-high strike calls, and guys couldn't be as selective (look at the walk totals), so he got a lot of swing and misses on the high strike. He could hit any spot with the fastball, though. And he knew the hitters as well as any pitcher, as you can imagine.

His 12-6 hammer curve just froze batters when it was really working which was most of the time.

[scOtt]

Palmer had an easy motion after he came out of his high leg kick and his fastball got up on the hitter faster than expected. His fastball had hop.

Back in those days he'd get a lot of letter-high strike calls, and guys couldn't be as selective (look at the walk totals), so he got a lot of swing and misses on the high strike. He could hit any spot with the fastball, though. And he knew the hitters as well as any pitcher, as you can imagine.

His 12-6 hammer curve just froze batters when it was really working which was most of the time.

Plus he batted. As well as a pitcher bats but 4 ABs a start (cuz he always pitched deep.) He knew what the hitters were looking for because he was a hitter. Of sorts.

[evenparthrough9]

Palmer was a master at changing eye levels and perfected the fastball up in the zone. He also never gave up a grand slam.

[tntoriole]

Palmer would offer the ball out of a very deceptive high kick and arms and legs. He had all the pitches and his command was outstanding. He also was very knowledgeable about what got hitters out. He had a photographic memory for every hitter he ever faced and could remeber virtually every pitch and the result. He was the greatest Oriole pitcher I have ever seen. After the year of the pitcher in 1968, MLB lowered the mound from 15 to 10 inches and went back to the pre 1963 strike zone. Palmer pitched primarily in the era after that change. Koufax, Gibson, Marichal all pitched their best and benefitted from the mound height and Koufax did his entire career, but Palmer only did in 1966 and he did not pitch in 67-68.

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[srock]

Orioles magic! Of course.

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