Rosenthal on Manny at SS

[Frobby]

4 minutes ago, Es4M11 said:

I can't speak to Brook's level of play on a game to game basis. Never got to see it myself - I'm 32. I'll take your word for it on Brooks. Would you say Manny is the best 3B in the last 25 years?

Manny is the best 3B I have had the privilege to watch. In my lifetime, I can't think of anyone who is as good. Manny just makes so many "wow" plays look routine, I almost think he doesn't get enough credit because he makes it look so easy all the time.

Brooks is the only player I'd rank over Manny.   It's always hard to say when you don't see all 30 third basemen every day the way you see Manny.       Cal said Beltre was better than Brooks, and while I don't agree, he's certainly elite, and beat out Manny for the GG last year.  

UZR has Manny easily no. 1 for 2012-16, 70 UZR compared to 54 to Donaldson in 2nd place.  

[LA2]

If we had Brooks in his prime, I'd definitely move Manny to SS.

[wildcard]

1 hour ago, El Gordo said:

Brooks didn't reach that level until age 30.

Brooks won his first Gold Glove at 23 and won every year there farther through the year he was 38.

[El Gordo]

31 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Brooks won his first Gold Glove at 23 and won every year there farther through the year he was 38.

Manny won his first GG and Platinum as well, at age 20 with a 32 Rtot season. Brooks didn't have that kind of season with the glove until age 30,

[Es4M11]

3 hours ago, Frobby said:

Brooks is the only player I'd rank over Manny.   It's always hard to say when you don't see all 30 third basemen every day the way you see Manny.       Cal said Beltre was better than Brooks, and while I don't agree, he's certainly elite, and beat out Manny for the GG last year.  

UZR has Manny easily no. 1 for 2012-16, 70 UZR compared to 54 to Donaldson in 2nd place.  

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

It seems Cal has gone out of his way since retiring to come off as impartial, I think the Beltre comment was made with this in mind. Maybe Cal believes it, maybe not? I'm just speculating of course.

I wonder how much Manny was hurt in GG voting because he played so many games at SS? Beltre is a great defender in his own right, but no way am I taking him over Manny. Machado is the ultimate game changer at 3B in the field. The guy does so many things at an elite level it's ridiculous. No one plays the bunt better, nobody defends the line better, one of the best infield arms in baseball, outstanding first step reaction time/quickness, etc. Oh, and he's a pretty good hitter these days, too.

Yeah, I hope we re-sign this guy...

[Moose Milligan]

6 hours ago, Frobby said:

We've seen Manny play 52 games at shortstop, so it's really hard to judge how he'd be if he played it full time for a year.    The defensive metrics are mixed on his performance, with Rtot showing him a bit below average, Rdrs and UZR showing him a little above average.     I personally believe he'd be above average if he had regular reps at SS, but he wouldn't be elite, which he obviously is at 3B.    Where I'd play him would depend on my other options at the two positions.  

Put it better than I could.  I think Manny could probably do really well at SS, would just need time to get back into the swing of things.  Hard to say what elite really would entail.

He's put on some size which I think would probably prohibit him from having a ton of range.  But if a big slow lug like Cal could play the position that well, there's no reason Manny couldn't be every bit as effective there.  

[Il BuonO]

41 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Put it better than I could.  I think Manny could probably do really well at SS, would just need time to get back into the swing of things.  Hard to say what elite really would entail.

He's put on some size which I think would probably prohibit him from having a ton of range.  But if a big slow lug like Cal could play the position that well, there's no reason Manny couldn't be every bit as effective there.  

Machado is more athletic than was Ripken. He makes many plays instinctively. Cal was great at positioning and more cerebral than Manny, who hasn't ever struck me as having a high baseball IQ. Although, I'm sure at the high level which he plays, it isn't necessary.

 

[JohnD]

If you think Manny plays that well on instinct and ability and gives no thought to the matter you're nuts.

i have no problem moving him to SS next year.  I think he would probably prepare differently in the offseason and come in with a different body as opposed to how he preps for a year at third.  And I just don't have high hopes that Hardy will be able to physically play at a high level for too much longer.

Obviously it all depends on if the Orioles agree and on who is available among SS and 3b.  

[Redskins Rick]

12 hours ago, wildcard said:

No one can argue with Brookie's consistency or Manny arm.

While I am old enough to have seen Brook make great plays at 3B.

I remember Brook being outstanding and being able to play the bunt, which was a part of the game back then, much more than its now.

I dont remember anything like Brook throwing from his knees, deep behind the bag and in the far corner of the diamond and getting the runner out.

 

[Frobby]

Manny can make throws Brooks couldn't make.    In my opinion, Brooks was a little quicker to the ball.    Manny has A+ reflexes, Brooks had A++ reflexes.   He also had the knack of getting back on his feet incredibly quickly after diving for a ball.    Manny is more inclined to throw from his knees or whirl 270 degrees to make a throw.   Brooks would just pop to his feet facing 1B and get rid of the ball super quickly.    Both capitalized on the talents they had.   I feel incredibly lucky to have been a fan of both.   

[Beef Supreme]

The Orioles would maximize the value of Machado by moving him to SS. Today, Hardy is the better defensive shortstop> But that might change if Manny were to play the position at the major league level for an extended period of time. He needs more than a month or two to adjust. Machado's biggest weakness currently is his penchant to fail to set his feet under him, resulting in wild throws. Hardy is much more consistent with his throws, even if his range may not be what Machado's would be.

For this year -- barring injury -- Hardy is the better defensive SS. Next year, the Orioles should decline the option on Hardy. If the two sides agree to have Hardy back on lower AAV, the debate will continue.

As for making the HOF, I couldn't care less. But Machado at SS -- hitting 300 or more career HRs -- would be a guaranteed first ballot HOFer. The path to the HOF would be much easier st SS than the path at 3B would. That is a consideration for voters: comparing players according to their primary positions vs. others who have played the same position. Right now, Banks and Ripken are the only sluggers at SS in the HOF that I can name off the top of my head. It's such a rare combination, baseball writers swoon over that type of player when it comes time for HOF voting.

Someone tried to argue a year or so ago in this forum that third base was a more important position defensively than shortstop. I can't remember the "reasoning" behind it; i only know that person has to be the only one in 150 years of baseball who expressed such a wildly erroneous idea. Teams throughout the history of the game have played their best defensive infielder at SS because it is, by far, the most important infield position. Lots of players can battle 3B to a draw, which would be good enough for me as long as there is a premier SS in that infield.

If Machado can reduce the hot-doggy throws across his body, throwing off the wrong foot when he has plenty of time to throw a runner out (see 1st inning on opening day, when he beat the runner at first by two strides but nearly pulled Davis off the bag with a high toss because he failed to get his feet set), he would improve his defense at thirdbase as well as at shortstop. I am not talking about the throws where there is no time to set his feet properly, like the beauty from his knees against the speedy Devon Travis on opening day. I am talking about the routine plays that he nonchalants.

I hope to see better footwork from Machado going forward, whether it be at third or short, which will result in more accurate throws. And I hope to see Manny at SS on opening day 2017.

[esmd]

He's getting compared to Brooks Robinson.  Legitimate comparison, not just some guy spouting who doesn't know any better.  Let that sink in for a moment.

Leave him at 3rd and let him become one of the all-time greats.  Don't weaken two positions by moving him to SS.

[Beef Supreme]

17 hours ago, Es4M11 said:

I have posted on this subject a few times. I think it is a poor idea to move Manny to SS, he is such a better 3B than a SS.

Manny is a good SS - not great - who plays too deep in hole, if you ask me. That said, Machado is the best 3B I have ever seen.

How many doubles does Machado prevent at SS? How many doubles does Manny prevent at 3B?

i think this is not the right way to determine where Machado should play. Thirdbasemen will prevent more doubles playing 3B than if they were to move to SS, no matter who the player is. It is the nature of the two positions.

But to play along with your claim: How many singles would Manny prevent at SS vs. 3B? And how many more runs would Machado prevent at SS than at 3B?

[Beef Supreme]

6 minutes ago, esmd said:

He's getting compared to Brooks Robinson.  Legitimate comparison, not just some guy spouting who doesn't know any better.  Let that sink in for a moment.

Leave him at 3rd and let him become one of the all-time greats.  Don't weaken two positions by moving him to SS.

You think Machado would not be one of the all-time greats at SS, hitting .290 with 400 HRs? And maybe a handful of Gold Gloves? I strongly disagree with you on that.

Hardy will be 36 next August. He is frequently injured for extended periods at this point in his career. I disagree that the Orioles would be weakening the SS position once Machado becomes re-acclimated to playing SS.

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, Beef Supreme said:

i think this is not the right way to determine where Machado should play. Thirdbasemen will prevent more doubles playing 3B than if they were to move to SS, no matter who the player is. It is the nature of the two positions.

But to play along with your claim: How many singles would Manny prevent at SS vs. 3B? And how many more runs would Machado prevent at SS than at 3B?

How is the Orioles offense with Manny at short and someone else at third as opposed to Manny at third and someone else at short?