Its decision time for the future

[24fps]

2 minutes ago, Sessh said:

If the rumors are true about him believing we're contenders/buyers, then maybe so. I guess we'll find out whether or not they are true soon enough. If PA tells him to refuse, he's going to refuse. We'll find out.

I think your basic premise is correct.  If PA tells DD to jump, DD will ask "how high" however reluctantly.  As far as listening to offers for Orioles players, well Dan will listen because that's what he does, right?  I think we can count on Dan to listen.

[Sessh]

4 minutes ago, SteveA said:

What makes you think that's happened?   Because Ubaldo can't throw strikes?

I am just wondering what evidence there is of this, besides simply poor play.

What about the guys having good years, like Mancini, Schoop, and Bundy?   Do they have extra confidence in Buck?   Or are they just playing well?

Manny had a terrible first few months but appears to be coming out of his slump now.   Is that just a baseball player who was slumping and now playing better, or did he somehow lose confidence in Buck for two months and now has it back.

Give me a concrete example that isn't just players underperforming that specifically indicates someone has lost confidence in Buck.   Has someone been questioning his decisions to the media?   Has someone complained about their usage?

Simply poor play? Legendary poor play. I'm pretty sure I saw somewhere else on here in one of these threads where someone used stats to point out that the Orioles offense has be average, the defense has been poor and the pitching goes without saying. Just poor play? It's a team not playing as a team. Bundy hasn't been doing well lately, but even if he was, you still get confused because it doesn't mean players just give up playing and never do anything good on the field ever. Mancini and Schoop are talented and who knows whether Manny will continue or not, but if the team doesn't have confidence in their leader, they aren't going to play at a high level. If the manager has nothing to do with this kind of play, then he also has nothing to do with the good play. If Showalter has little or nothing to do with what's going on now, then he also had little or nothing to do with 2012-2016 and that's nonsense both ways. Be in love with Buck all you want, but he has shaped this team personnel wise and as far as I know, he picks the coaches as well. It's all Buck. This team hasn't been competitive since April and have looked just like the disastrous dark age teams and in some ways even worse. Underachieving? That's all this is to you? Dream on.

[Sessh]

6 minutes ago, 24fps said:

I think your basic premise is correct.  If PA tells DD to jump, DD will ask "how high" however reluctantly.  As far as listening to offers for Orioles players, well Dan will listen because that's what he does, right?  I think we can count on Dan to listen.

I sure hope he would, but even if he did, I doubt anything would be allowed to come of it.

[Cumberbundy]

14 hours ago, wildcard said:

Bundy arm is getting fatigued.  He probably needs to move to he pen for a while.   

Gausman has untapped potential.

Tillman is a high risk player now.   His arm strength is not good enough to have an effective out pitch.   Will he come back?  No likely without rest and rehab.

The outlook for starting pitching for the rest of the year is bleak.

Do we know if Tillmans weight is down? Watching his last start his arms looked unusually skinny to me. 

[Cumberbundy]

13 hours ago, DirtyBird said:

 

Well we gave up Yovanni Gallardo for a full year of Seth Smith. What do you suppose a team would give up for a half season of him? And how would that return help the organization?

Smith probably falls in the middle of the three in terms of trade value, behind Castillo and ahead of Kim.

There are a lot of young guys who aren't viewed as much who will be good, I imagine Smith could bring back more overall value now than Mancini would have at this time a year ago. #TrustTheDuqsess

 

[Uli2001]

17 minutes ago, SteveA said:

What makes you think that's happened?   Because Ubaldo can't throw strikes?

I am just wondering what evidence there is of this, besides simply poor play.

What about the guys having good years, like Mancini, Schoop, and Bundy?   Do they have extra confidence in Buck?   Or are they just playing well?

Manny had a terrible first few months but appears to be coming out of his slump now.   Is that just a baseball player who was slumping and now playing better, or did he somehow lose confidence in Buck for two months and now has it back.

Give me a concrete example that isn't just players underperforming that specifically indicates someone has lost confidence in Buck.   Has someone been questioning his decisions to the media?   Has someone complained about their usage?

If you are correct, then no manager is ever to blame for their team losing.

I think what people are perceiving is that for the first time under Showalter, the team has a losing attitude. They are showing no pride, no accountability to each other. There's something different this year.

I wonder just how much the WC game fiasco has hurt Showalter's stock with the team. 

[Cumberbundy]

13 hours ago, wildcard said:

So you are going to open contract discussions with Manny's agent on July 15th?  First question he is going to ask is how long is Buck going to stay.   And your trying to find out what is takes to keep Manny at the same time there is an all out effort to get the best value for Britton. 

Better start talks to Buck and Dan now about their future.  And it wouldn't hurt to know what Manny and his agent are thinking before the Britton's trade talks get hot and heavy.

What does Britton have to do with Manny? Manny knows Buck won't be around to the end of his next contract here and obviously not anywhere else. Who gives a hoot about Buck, Manny? I want to keep Macho, Schoop, Bundy, Gaus and let them bring along the next generation of Os as Jones/Tillman did over the last several years. But, if we can't afford Manny, we should know already and that doesn't have much to do with anyone else. If Manny needs to know about Buck, see if we can trade Buck too.

[Cumberbundy]

13 hours ago, wildcard said:

Bundy is following the same path he had last year.  Both years he moves into the rotation.  Pitching great, then good, then has command problems.   He knows how to pitch and has great stuff as long as he arm is not fatigued. But he hasn't build up his  arm strength to the point of having stamina for the whole year.  He probably needs a break about now.   Lessen his load for a few weeks and he might rebound for a while.

He pitched into a lot of luck early. He needs to sort out how to get consistency with his off speed pitches, I think his problems are about limited professional innings and work on his stuff, I don't think he's fatigued but you could be correct of course.

[SteveA]

9 minutes ago, Sessh said:

Simply poor play? Legendary poor play. I'm pretty sure I saw somewhere else on here in one of these threads where someone used stats to point out that the Orioles offense has be average, the defense has been poor and the pitching goes without saying. Just poor play? It's a team not playing as a team. Bundy hasn't been doing well lately, but even if he was, you still get confused because it doesn't mean players just give up playing and never do anything good on the field ever. Mancini and Schoop are talented and who knows whether Manny will continue or not, but if the team doesn't have confidence in their leader, they aren't going to play at a high level. If the manager has nothing to do with this kind of play, then he also has nothing to do with the good play. If Showalter has little or nothing to do with what's going on now, then he also had little or nothing to do with 2012-2016 and that's nonsense both ways. Be in love with Buck all you want, but he has shaped this team personnel wise and as far as I know, he picks the coaches as well. It's all Buck. This team hasn't been competitive since April and have looked just like the disastrous dark age teams and in some ways even worse. Underachieving? That's all this is to you? Dream on.

If you are arguing that the manager is ultimately repsonsible, well of course the buck has to stop somewhere, pun intended.

But if Buck is responsible for us being the worst team in MLB for 42 games, then he is just as responsible for us being the best team in the AL over the previous 850 games.

I don't think the collapse of the team has anything to do with the team being confident in Buck's leadership for 850 straight games over 5+ years, going to bed on May 9 with the best record in baseball, and waking up on May 10 and no longer being confident in his leadership anymore. 

[Cumberbundy]

13 hours ago, MDK02 said:

What a disaster of a season. The worst part is, our ownership won't sell no matter what it seems. 

How nice it would be to welcome new young blood in. It's hard to believe the assets we've let go for this. But, we are O's fans, we can make it through 0-21, Dan can't hurt us.

[Cumberbundy]

13 hours ago, clapdiddy said:

The only way this team should become a buyer is if it somehow goes on a miraculous run of sorts.   There are 34 games left until the trade deadline.    Let's say they go on a 20-14 run over those 34 games and the starting pitching somehow looks a little more respectable.  Do we still sell?

Personally, I don't see it happening.   This team is capable of going on a good run if everyone comes back healthy, though.

 

Sell! If we get Britton back, and he's his usual self, he has to be worth more in this juiced ball game we have in 2017. The home runs are absurd, a pitcher like Britton is a unicorn in this game. 

[SteveA]

6 minutes ago, Uli2001 said:

If you are correct, then no manager is ever to blame for their team losing.

I think what people are perceiving is that for the first time under Showalter, the team has a losing attitude. They are showing no pride, no accountability to each other. There's something different this year.

I wonder just how much the WC game fiasco has hurt Showalter's stock with the team. 

Of course the manager bears a level of ultimate responsibilty for the play of the team, he's the leader.   (Although I think a lot of the people blaming Buck for this horrible 42 game stretch as the worst team in baseball did NOT give him all the equivalent credit for being the best team in the AL for 850 games).

As for the pride, accountability thing, what is the evidence?   Manny has shown a lack of hustle, but he showed that when we we were winning.   Tejada made a poor error?   You think there were no ugly errors when we were winning?  

Where do you see lack of pride?   I see a pitching staff getting hammered, and an offense that is underachieving a bit but has some guys doing well and others not.  

[24fps]

10 minutes ago, SteveA said:

If you are arguing that the manager is ultimately repsonsible, well of course the buck has to stop somewhere, pun intended.

But if Buck is responsible for us being the worst team in MLB for 42 games, then he is just as responsible for us being the best team in the AL over the previous 850 games.

I don't think the collapse of the team has anything to do with the team being confident in Buck's leadership for 850 straight games over 5+ years, going to bed on May 9 with the best record in baseball, and waking up on May 10 and no longer being confident in his leadership anymore. 

Shame on you.  Common sense has no place in the kind of thread this has turned into.

Frankly I'm interested in seeing just how ridiculous this narrative becomes.  It desperately needs a soundtrack that turns dark when we cut to Buck's back as he walks away from his one, last chance to rally the Orioles in this, their time of need.

[Cumberbundy]

11 hours ago, Lucky_13 said:

I think that depends on how long the rebuild lasts. I think they could be competitive again in two years if they do it right. They have some good position prospects that are a year or two away. If they use machado and britton to get some young pitching. Then clear salaries of the other free agents and maybe Trumbo. They could use the money to supplement the young guys and be set up nicely for the long term. 

We need 3 starters. We can't rebuild & compete with what Boston & NY have in 2 years imo ...and perhaps not Toronto.

[El Gordo]

Unlike many here who seem to be certain of the future, I have always found baseball to be difficult to predict. I am willing to wait until after the ASB before I start planning my rebuild retool whatever. Who really  knows where things will be then?