You Don't Finish Last...

[Camden_yardbird]

...and no one loses a job.  If your team expects to be in the playoffs and you finish in last place someone has to go.  I don't like to see people lose jobs, but there has to be some expectation of results, right?

As for what we see from the Orioles I think it will be interesting to see what changes are made to the front office and coaching staff.

And if no changes are made I think it speaks volumes about how the organization is run.  When Buck came in he instilled a motto of accountability and I have found that lacking in recent years.  All the blame can't be placed on the players.

[1968_bills_fan]

The fat lady has sung and sat down.  Time to clean house.  Time to draft well and sell off several too-expensive toys and go with young guys.  We finished in last frigging place. 

[Aglets]

Time to fire everyone!

Just like we did after missing the playoffs in 2013 and 2015............. 

I think of this off season kind of like the 2011 one tbh.   Only now we have recent pattern of being a playoff team.  Dan was able to add some great SP talent for cheap that off-season, hopefully we can work some similar magic this time.   I'll settle for expensive pitching talent.

[Gman!!]

From WC possibility in early Sept To dead last place!... wow i believe if Joe Giradi managed O’s they would have been a WC... point is I don’t think Yankees had any better talent than the O’s. Davis & Trumbo asses would have been benched & would have gotten better performance from pitching staff... 

[Ohfan67]

18 minutes ago, Camden_yardbird said:

...and no one loses a job.  If your team expects to be in the playoffs and you finish in last place someone has to go.  I don't like to see people lose jobs, but there has to be some expectation of results, right?

As for what we see from the Orioles I think it will be interesting to see what changes are made to the front office and coaching staff.

And if no changes are made I think it speaks volumes about how the organization is run.  When Buck came in he instilled a motto of accountability and I have found that lacking in recent years.  All the blame can't be placed on the players.

But, but, last fall who could have foreseen that Tilman would be hurt, that Ubaldo and Miley would stink, and that Davis and Trumbo would underperform. I mean, like, NOBODY could have foreseen those problems! 

 

 

 

[Aglets]

3 minutes ago, Gman!! said:

From WC possibility in early Sept To dead last place!... wow i believe if Joe Giradi managed O’s they would have been a WC... point is I don’t think Yankees had any better talent than the O’s. Davis & Trumbo asses would have been benched & would have gotten better performance from pitching staff... 

The Yankees scored over 110 more runs than we did.

We allowed over 180 more runs than them.

They are a better team than us this year.   Curious to hear how Girardi would've gotten Miley, Ubaldo, and Tillman to pitch better.

[Frobby]

1 minute ago, Ohfan67 said:

But, but, last fall who could have foreseen that Tilman would be hurt, that Ubaldo and Miley would stink, and that Davis and Trumbo would underperform. I mean, like, NOBODY could have foreseen those problems! 

 

 

 

I think the degree of the pitching meltdown was pretty extreme.   They allowed 126 more runs than last year.    It's one thing to say you don't expect a pitcher to be good, and another thing to say you expect his ERA to rise by more than a run.   When 3-4 of the starters all do that at the same time, yeah I think it's kind of unexpected.   

[esmd]

I think Duquette has done a good enough job in the last 5 seasons to earn some more rope.  Clearly, players underperformed this year.  Now, you could say he should've known it with the SP, but even so, I'm giving him a shot next year to fix it.  If next year ends up like this year, then you'll see a housecleaning, both in the front office, and in the clubhouse. 

[Frobby]

16 minutes ago, esmd said:

I think Duquette has done a good enough job in the last 5 seasons to earn some more rope.  Clearly, players underperformed this year.  Now, you could say he should've known it with the SP, but even so, I'm giving him a shot next year to fix it.  If next year ends up like this year, then you'll see a housecleaning, both in the front office, and in the clubhouse. 

I think you're right.    I'm not in the "we had one bad season, therefore heads must roll" mentality.     I do think that every offseason, management and coaches need to be evaluated and decisions made as to whether they did their job well, and if not, then changes get made.     McDowell is the obvious guy to be on the hot seat, but I don't think he automatically gets tossed without considering whether he really didn't do a good job, or whether the players simply didn't perform well.   

[LookitsPuck]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

I think the degree of the pitching meltdown was pretty extreme.   They allowed 126 more runs than last year.    It's one thing to say you don't expect a pitcher to be good, and another thing to say you expect his ERA to rise by more than a run.   When 3-4 of the starters all do that at the same time, yeah I think it's kind of unexpected.   

Well, it certainly was pretty extreme.

But it is not wise in any way, shape or form to not sign any meaningful starting pitching depth (and no...Logan Verrett, Gabriel Ynoa, etc. are not acceptable) when we *knew* that Tillman was hurt. We *knew* that Ubaldo has been a disaster for pretty much his entire tenure outside of 1 or 2 stretches. And we *knew* that Miley is a back of the rotation starter *at best*.

Here's the problem. Duquette hasn't acquired an effective starter since Miguel Gonzalez (2012), Chen (2012), Hammel (2012) and Bud Norris (2013). We're going on how many years of futility from Duquette in regards to starting pitchers? Hell, we had to drive Bundy into the ground last year (110 IP...Jesus Christ) to even have a fighting chance.

This year was irresponsible. It was inept management to go into this season with a hurt Tillman, Ubaldo Jimenez, Wade Miley, Kevin Gausman and Dylan Bundy with *no* meaningful depth behind them. 

[Camden_yardbird]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

I think you're right.    I'm not in the "we had one bad season, therefore heads must roll" mentality.     I do think that every offseason, management and coaches need to be evaluated and decisions made as to whether they did their job well, and if not, then changes get made.     McDowell is the obvious guy to be on the hot seat, but I don't think he automatically gets tossed without considering whether he really didn't do a good job, or whether the players simply didn't perform well.   

I agree you have to have an evaluation on a case by case basis.  You will find my OP was not advocating for immediate or any firings, and speculated on there not being any.  My focus was more on the reaction of the organization and whether there would be any, and to the extent there was whatnot would be.

The players clearly underperformed, no one will dispute that.  But if the players are underperforming you can evaluate whether those doing the talent acquisition failed in their evaluation or whether those deploying the players and game plans did so effectively.

All of that said, where does the accountability lie?  And is there going to be meaningful change?  

One last point.  It's two put of three bad seasons, even if you are generous and count the AL WC game last year as "success."  I don't.

[Ohfan67]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

I think the degree of the pitching meltdown was pretty extreme.   They allowed 126 more runs than last year.    It's one thing to say you don't expect a pitcher to be good, and another thing to say you expect his ERA to rise by more than a run.   When 3-4 of the starters all do that at the same time, yeah I think it's kind of unexpected.   

As soon as I hit submit I thought, "I bet Frobby responds to this post."  Of course the magnitude of the suck-a-tude was unexpected and I was jesting a little, but many thought Tilman was injured and most of us thought that Jimenez and Miley were going to stink. You didn't need to be Carmac the Magnificent to predict that the rotation was going to have trouble.  DD forced himself into a position where he had to wish, hope, and pray that Jimenez and Miley weren't horrible, that the young guys got better, and that Tilman would somehow make it through the season. All five rotation spots were questionable and DD was forced to just stock AAA with possibilities that, for the most part, did not rise to the challenge when given an opportunity. I think that's clearly on DD. We can debate whether the Davis contract was really DD's work, but I think the rotation was DD's and he was incredibly iffy going into the season. 

[LookitsPuck]

Just now, Ohfan67 said:

As soon as I hit submit I thought, "I bet Frobby responds to this post."  Of course the magnitude of the suck-a-tude was unexpected and I was jesting a little, but many thought Tilman was injured and most of us thought that Jimenez and Miley were going to stink. You didn't need to be Carmac the Magnificent to predict that the rotation was going to have trouble.  DD forced himself into a position where he had to wish, hope, and pray that Jimenez and Miley weren't horrible, that the young guys got better, and that Tilman would somehow make it through the season. All five rotation spots were questionable and DD was forced to just stock AAA with possibilities that, for the most part, did not rise to the challenge when given an opportunity. I think that's clearly on DD. We can debate whether the Davis contract was really DD's work, but I think the rotation was DD's and he was incredibly iffy going into the season. 

Exactly this.

And it speaks volumes that Ubaldo was in the rotation for 95% of the season. He made it the entire year. The. Entire. Year. 

This was Ubaldo's worst season by far. ERA+ of 64. FIP of 5.54. ERA of 6.81. Career highs in HR/9, H/9. 

[Tx Oriole]

3 hours ago, Camden_yardbird said:

...and no one loses a job.  If your team expects to be in the playoffs and you finish in last place someone has to go.  I don't like to see people lose jobs, but there has to be some expectation of results, right?

As for what we see from the Orioles I think it will be interesting to see what changes are made to the front office and coaching staff.

And if no changes are made I think it speaks volumes about how the organization is run.  When Buck came in he instilled a motto of accountability and I have found that lacking in recent years.  All the blame can't be placed on the players.

I'd like to see a lot of changes made. Sorry but I still think DD and Buck need to go. 

[Tx Oriole]

3 hours ago, Gman!! said:

From WC possibility in early Sept To dead last place!... wow i believe if Joe Giradi managed O’s they would have been a WC... point is I don’t think Yankees had any better talent than the O’s. Davis & Trumbo asses would have been benched & would have gotten better performance from pitching staff... 

Oh I think the Yankees have a more talented team.